Do insulated radiator panels save money? - I'm testing them now

Graham_Page_2

OK then, just a couple of observations.

Many of the panels sold, including ours, have a saw-tooth profile. We believe that not only does this trap an insulating layer of air between panel and wall, but that the profile of the panel improves circulation of warm air in the room. Neither of these factors (if they are indeed such) would derive from flat foil installations.

I'm not a physicist (or indeed a psychologist though I understand wishful-thinking). But I did receive an email from the Head of Physics at a school which had installed the panels. He was interested in our test results because he had observed the teachers (following an installation that they knew nothing about) turning their radiators down because they were too hot. Perhaps it was just a warm day, or perhaps.....

Dave_save

I, like Cardew, had a look at various websites, including the Energy Savings Trust. The claim of 'up to 20% savings' (presumably on gas consumption) you will admit is quite a bold claim to make. I too looked for independent test results (or indeed ANY test results) and found none to back up your claim. Not surprising really as the science behind the design doesn't add up!

I also noted (from your website) that a lot of the users of these panels were Local Authorities, who are notorious for believing the speel of salesmen without actually getting verification of the claims (a case of spend taxpayers money while we have it!). So, do any of these LAs have documented proof that the panels installed are actually achieving savings of between 10-20%? Has your company carried out comparisons of 'before and after'?

So, if in your next post you can give this evidence, I'll be the first to place an order.

On a related note I did receive an e mail yesterday from EDF offering something similar at discounted prices.

Graham_Page_2

I can't post the results here for two reasons:

1) There is too much to put in a post, and

2) The reports themselves are copyright protected.

However, if you contact me at Joulesave (see website) I will send you a summary of the tests and results.

DVardysShadow

Graham_Page wrote: »

Leaving out your unnecessary rudeness I'll try to answer your questions.

Most of the savings in the many independent tests carried out on similar panels express savings in KWh/sq m/year. Any percentage saving quoted is therefore usually derived from dividing the saving by the estimated total KWh used for heating. You may have overlooked what I said about the large number of variables facing any tester - these figures are indicative only.

If you aren't too fastidious to look at our website you will see that we are Ofgem approved under the CERT scheme and that other tests have been carried out by Queen's University Belfast, BSRIA, UKAEA among many others.

You are right about the Energy Savings Trust who have not looked at radiator panels yet. I can't speak for them but you might want to ask again in a few months' time.

You are also quite right to say that maximum saving would probably be achieved by lining the walls of a room with panels, but most people would not choose that form of decoration and the best place to put them is behind the radiator. We haven't tested your suggestion.

I'm sorry if you think that suppliers should not post here. I made my position clear in my first sentence and I would like to think that I have provided some helpful information. If you don't like it - scroll down!

Cardew is pretty much respected here for his technical expertise. If he is not convinced, it is probably for a reason.

You are on here by your own admission as a supplier of a product for which you are making technical claims. If you cannot take a robust line of technical questioning, then you would do better yourself to scroll down without posting. This site is huge and there are more than enough here with a very good understanding of physics. If you cannot take technical debate at face value, you would do better to stay away.

Graham_Page_2

I don't think that any of my posts have tried to avoid answering technical questions. In Cardew's case I think that I tried to answer most, if not all of his points, though I did allow myself a comment on what I felt was an impolite message on his part.

Cardew

Graham_Page wrote: »

Thanks for your comments. I certainly didn't intend to mislead, quite the opposite.

The essential difficulty is that giving what most people want, i.e. a simple answer (even with caveats), opens one up to others who want to debate the detail.

Where I do disagree with you is over 'Any independent test of any worth would control all the variables'. All the tests that I have seen have simulated a variety of conditions, but the number of variables, even in wall constructions is just too great, and the tests (which we usually pay for) are very expensive. Then, what do you measure? Many tests just assess the reduction in heat loss through the wall, but there is also a benefit from the water in the system being returned hotter to the boiler and so requiring less reheating.

And unlike you I don't see that 'a lower room temperature profile' is irrelevant, if by that you mean that the overall effect of the panels is to make the room warmer which is what most of our customers report.

I'm being sucked into a supplier v enthusiast debate, which was not my intention. I'm sorry if you don't like my comments, I'll post no more.

Customers reporting?

You get loads of customers that report on MSE a magnet strapped to the the fuel lines of a car, oil or gas CH improves fuel consumption by 20% or more - the technical explanation apparently is that 'it lines up the mollycules(sic) which improves burning!!!'

How on earth can you can possible argue that a panel behind a radiator covering say 3% of the wall area can somehow prevent 10% or 20% of the heat loss in the whole wall? room?, including floor? ceiling?

Submerge 50% of any solid object(a house brick will do nicely) in water and see what temp the 50% not submerged reaches.

Water returned warmer to boiler? So these devices stop radiators radiating?

Design circulates the air which does what?

Copyright protected reports? How convenient!

The Energy Saving Trust give all manner of methods of saving heat. Hot water tank jackets, roof and wall insulation, double glazing etc. Yet if we are to believe your claims they have neglected the biggest savings of all - and yet it doesn't even merit a mention.

I am stating unequivocally that your claims of saving are just a nonsense. However on the internet you can say 'up to' 50% savings with impunity; 0.001% is covered by that term.

Sorry to be rude, but you will get enough suckers to buy without spamming this site.

Graham_Page_2

Well I've done my best to add some light but only succeeded in generating heat. In the interests of global warming I'll leave you to your fun. Do check back with the EST in six months or so though.

DVardysShadow

Graham_Page wrote: »

Well I've done my best to add some light but only succeeded in generating heat. In the interests of global warming I'll leave you to your fun. Do check back with the EST in six months or so though.

Don't make out Cardew is stopping the light. Answer this

How on earth can you can possible argue that a panel behind a radiator covering say 3% of the wall area can somehow prevent 10% or 20% of the heat loss in the whole wall? room?, including floor? ceiling?

and we will all be enlightened.

Graham_Page_2

I'm not going to keep posting here but your question has a simple answer. The radiator may be covering only 3% of the wall but it is generating 100% of the heat. So any device addressing heat-loss has 100% to work on, not 3%.

Pincher

As far as I'm concerned, nobody will look behind the radiators, so a piece of Kinspan cut to shape can simply drop in, no screwdriver required.

I think there is a real benefit to thermal lining behind radiators, it's just that the salesmen are clueless so they just make up reasons for buying it.

Anyone who has installed underfloor heating in concrete should know they should have insulation around the perimeter, otherwise the concrete simply leeches heat into the wall, which then conducts the heat into the ground. The 100mm of Kingspan beneath the pipe work is obviously even more important. The elimination of cold bridge is of paramount importance for UFH.

For a solid external wall, you have two issues, one is the convective loss to the air, the other one is conductive loss into the ground. Cavity walls is obviously meant to address the convective loss, but that still leaves the conductive loss. The bracket mounting offset prevents massive loss, but the hot spot is still on a highway to ground. Elimination of this cold bridge is definitely beneficial, just not 50%.

I have solid walls, and I have replaced the internal plaster around one bay window with 40mm thick of Insowall thermal plaster.
Unfortunately, this can only be done for rooms during complete renovation, so the other rooms will just have thermal lining behind radiators, until the next major overhaul.