Graduates now 'more likely to end up as cleaners', official figures show

Lokolo

Masomnia wrote: »

This is what happens in America, and they only reason it does is because companies get tax breaks for doing so. So whether it's companies or the government paying for education, it's the tax payer that ultimately foots the bill.

Yes but without the loans the taxpayer foots the bill for everything. I'd rather they try to limit the cost as much as possible, without making university like the US whereby only the rich kids go.

Callie22

Lokolo wrote: »

I'm personally for d), whereby companies sponsor universities to decrease tuition fee costs.

I really don't see why that doesn't happen more. I'm always just a little sceptical of the claims from employers that 'universities aren't producing the graduates with the skills we need'. What's happened to the employer's own training? Why is there an expectation that a graduate is going to come out of a degree - which by its nature is going to be fairly generic - with the job specific skills for company x (and company y, and company z)? I've been working a few years, and I've never once had 'training' in any job I've taken on, 'graduate job' or not. I've been expected to hit the ground running and in general, through a combination of personal qualities (common sense, the ability to keep my mouth shut and listen ...) and the transferable skills I got from a degree and previous work (meet a deadline, make a spreadsheet, write a report), I've managed pretty well.

I do think though that 'industry' does need to take some responsibility for the lack of skills in this country. The responsibility for training seems to have been pushed from employers to individuals - university (allegedly) provides that training so it stands to reason that people are going to take courses that they believe will give them the skills for work. Employers can't have it both ways - they either need to offer training, or tailor degrees to match their specific needs (and sponsor students to take them) or they need to accept that they're not going to get people applying who have the exact skill-set that they need.

I also think that some employers have no idea how degrees and university admin work. It can take years (literally years) to create a degree course or individual module, get it approved, get it taught and get students out with that knowledge. That's why I think that employers have to take some responsibility - if you want people who know x, it's much quicker to buy in a course and train your staff up than it is to wait for a university to develop that course, and wait again for a student to graduate with that knowledge (which in many fields would probably be out of date by that point anyway).

lostinrates

Masomnia wrote: »

This is what happens in America, and they only reason it does is because companies get tax breaks for doing so. So whether it's companies or the government paying for education, it's the tax payer that ultimately foots the bill.

There has been great debate among European employees of international and american firms about the impbalance of payment. Justification is usually the greater student debt of US gfraduates. If this is a valid reason maybe some areas of employment in uk will see rising salaries to reflect increased student debt too.

lostinrates

Callie22 wrote: »

Employers can't have it both ways - they either need to offer training, or tailor degrees to match their specific needs (and sponsor students to take them) or they need to accept that they're not going to get people applying who have the exact skill-set that they need. .

again, I see an intersting pov from the legal sector. Some of the magic circle firms did indeed say that training was not fit, and so designed, with BPP I think, a course for corporate law for the Magic circle firms. No idea what its like or anything about it. FWIW dh feels the years spent on his Professional qualification (not tailored to these firms) was a waste of time and he's have been better with ''on the job'' training after his law conversion.

gadgetmind

Callie22 wrote: »

I'm always just a little sceptical of the claims from employers that 'universities aren't producing the graduates with the skills we need'.

Some are, but not enough. They are also dishing out 1st class and upper 2nd degrees to people who then crash and burn on our basic tests. Why?

What's happened to the employer's own training? Why is there an expectation that a graduate is going to come out of a degree - which by its nature is going to be fairly generic - with the job specific skills for company x

We don't expect to find anything job specific, just your basic "bread and butter" comp sci or elec eng knowledge with the ability to apply it to specific problems when required.

I do think though that 'industry' does need to take some responsibility for the lack of skills in this country.

The universities blame the schools for not teaching A-levels right, so why shouldn't employer's be able blame universities for not doing their bit? After all, it is the employers who have to suffer from a dearth of UK education candidates of the required calibre. Meanwhile, we're seeing grad candidates from Poland, Spain, Greece, etc. who pass our tests and interviews with flying colours, and this despite it all not being in their native tongue.

I also think that some employers have no idea how degrees and university admin work.

I do personally engage with local universities, and indicate to them which areas of the subject are most important to employers such as ourselves. I also give presentations to students to tell them what we like to see, but TBH it boils down to "any fool can do the easy stuff, so tackle the hard stuff, and put the hours in (thousands of them!) because you can't learn these skills in lectures."

olly300

gadgetmind wrote: »

Some are, but not enough. They are also dishing out 1st class and upper 2nd degrees to people who then crash and burn on our basic tests. Why?

Maybe you are wasting your time with certain universities.

While some people say it's not fair I know from my experience at universities that certain companies would target certain universities and certain courses but miss others out, due to the course content.

gadgetmind wrote: »

The universities blame the schools for not teaching A-levels right, so why shouldn't employer's be able blame universities for not doing their bit? After all, it is the employers who have to suffer from a dearth of UK education candidates of the required calibre.
Meanwhile, we're seeing grad candidates from Poland, Spain, Greece, etc. who pass our tests and interviews with flying colours, and this despite it all not being in their native tongue.

There degree courses tend to be longer in Europe and in the case of some of them they work while studying.

So it's not uncommon to find someone who has spent 7 years studying for an undergraduate degree with 3 years work experience.

It is odd working with a colleague who just turns around and goes "I'm off to a lecture I be back at 3pm."

gadgetmind wrote: »

I do personally engage with local universities, and indicate to them which areas of the subject are most important to employers such as ourselves. I also give presentations to students to tell them what we like to see, but TBH it boils down to "any fool can do the easy stuff, so tackle the hard stuff, and put the hours in (thousands of them!) because you can't learn these skills in lectures."

Lots of universities offer optional modules in the 2nd but definitely the 3rd year, and many students will take up the easier ones to get a higher classification of degree.

Hence some universities are now looking at, and one is actually trialling, the producing a course grade breakdown manuscript to go with the degree certificate.

gadgetmind

olly300 wrote: »

There degree courses tend to be longer in Europe.

Particularly in English?

Loughton_Monkey

gadgetmind wrote: »

Particularly in English?

Now their's a sarcastic comment if ever I sore won.

Loughton_Monkey

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14683133

Google chairman Eric *Schm1dt has said education in Britain is holding back the country's chances of success in the digital media economy.

PaulW1965

Originally Posted by Lokolo
I'm personally for d), whereby companies sponsor universities to decrease tuition fee costs.

Businesses need that like a hole in the head.