Can we Count on Low Cost Quick Turnarounds or are they a risk to our security?

2sides2everystory

I often sit near the front when I fly back and forth within Europe. I fly quite regularly - maybe 4 times a month.

Yet again on my most recent flight there was an uncertain debate about how many souls were on board before the doors closed.

I happened to look at my watch when the aircraft arrived on the apron and again when it left the apron. A whole hour had passed - we left 15 minutes later than scheduled, and all because they couldn't agree on the count. AGAIN!!!

I have seen this so many times and each time is worrying because it never involves actual bag checks and boarding card checks of the people actually on the plane.

It always ends up with someone asserting that the numbers reconcile one way or another whether it is to do with people buying extra seats themselves or musical instruments or miscounting infants as seats or including or excluding supernumerary aircrew.

On this flight, I actually saw a supposed member of aircrew in uniform duck under a railing at the gate with his mandatory flight case bumping under with him, wearing a fluorescent jacket labelled "AIRCREW", yet a minute or two after that I found he was actually queueing with the passengers out near the apron. He had anaged to straighten his hair and his tie again.

He was very young and I couldn't help thinking he was behaving like he was slightly unsure of how a pilot navigates airport security! For a start - apart from ducking under the railing and thereby crudely avoiding a boarding card and ID check, only to be challenged and have to ID himself anyway, if he was merely queueing and boarding as a passenger, why did he need to be wearing a yellow jacket??

Anyway, once airside, the dispatcher ventually spotted him waiting with us passengers and let him board first - maybe he was operational aircrew after all - I never got to see where he sat in the plane - could have been in the cockpit of course . P'raps it was one of his first line flights. His yellow jacket did some sort of trick - got him noticed in a queue at least, even if it didn't stop him being challenged when he ducked under a railing

If it was one of his first line flights, then he was about to be treated to a twenty minute debate eventually involving all the flight crew, the number one cabin crew, the other cabin crew who had to count again, two separate senior airport dispatchers, some other airport staff on the end of a phone call from the plane, and no decent conclusion that I heard. Perhaps as a new pilot (if that's what our yellow jacketed friend was), he needed to hear or experience this as essential extracurricular training. I would say without exaggeration that at least 1 in 4 flights on this airline have unscheduled extra recounts and corresponding nagging uncertainty before they fly. Sometimes I am tempted to say it is nearer 1 in 2 flights.

So what did the 25 minute turnaround target achieve on this last one? ... well there was the usual uncertainty about counting, plus some associated real world training for a new young pilot about what really goes on before the doors close when flying low cost. Does the captain believe the numbers he/she is being asked to accept or should there be a delay whilst its all checked?

And what does it achieve when the debates are shorter and the schedule is tighter? That's the more worrying side of a story like this, isn't it?

Westin

Sorry but I am finding it difficult to understand what you are going on about.

Bob_the_Saver

Seen many recounts (8 on a long haul flight earlier this year) but never seen a departure until it was resolved - often an uncollected boarding card.

2sides2everystory

Westin wrote: »

Sorry but I am finding it difficult to understand what you are going on about.

That's alright Westin, you can practice on the easy forum questions first if you like.

richardw

Yes we can, no they aren't.

The captain knows what is going on in his craft.

The time allowed for flight rotations isn't really that 'tight'.

2sides2everystory

Of course it is tight, Richard. The flight I described landed 15 or 20 minutes "early" and left 15 minutes late, but what happens when it lands 15 minutes late and there's a couple of wheelchair passengers to embark or disembark?

It's a target which compromises safety. Any assertion to the contrary invites complacency.

At Stansted I reckon that as a direct consequence of the rushing often associated with 25 minute turnaround targets it would be quite possible sometimes to get on a plane without valid ID. There is only one ID check - "at the gate". There are at least two ways to foil this - one is that I have seen that correct IDs and boarding passes are checked not physically "at the gate" but pre-checked down the line to save time in the ragged queues that form and overlap in body of the satellite terminals, and then a switch occurs in that melee and someone else boards the flight instead.

Another way might be to simply to abuse the fact that many of the "ID inspections" are conducted by people who are not focussed and who are used to going through the motions of touching the ID but sometimes are just intent on tearing off their bit of the boarding pass. No false passports (which abound) get noticed at the gate.

Boarding passes used to be kept in safes. Inkjetted boarding passes are now so common that you don't need the associated ID for one to get access airside. So you could enter the airport with a pocketful costing you as little as £5 each if it suited your purpose. You could also take duplicates.

How many people traffickers use variations on these themes to do their business airside?

I have even picked up several boarding card slips off the floor on a previous occasion - apparently having fallen off the desk from where they were perched after collection for the already forgotten previous flight. Have those slips no function after the flight has left? I beg to differ with that view.

The point of this thread is to highlight that I have noticed all these things and that if I have noticed then the bad guys wil have noticed too.

The number of recount incidents I have witnessed is worrying. More importantly what actually happens as a result of these anomalies is more worrying. Either they are reconciled or they are not reconciled but are always taken to be reconciled. The flight always leaves without everybody disembarking and reboarding.

BTW ... the captain only knows what he has taken the trouble to find out without doubt, Richard. Captains are human and susceptible to commercial pressures.

Naf

Someone's been reading Michael Crichton's 'Airframe' and taking things a little too seriously...

richardw

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Of course it is tight, Richard.

Nope, current rotation flight times are Ok.

Read again what I just said, 'rotation flight times'.

You missed that bit didn't you?

Perhaps read and understand before writing more of the same.

Low cost airlines have been at Stansted for a very long time.

cactusdust

All staff must where a high viz jacket either when external airside or in other locations where it is stipulated.

Perhaps you could do a scaremongering piece for the Daily Mail? I'm just sure it'd be truly insightful.

2sides2everystory

I don't understand why you are splitting hairs, Richard. You can call the turnarounds 25 minutes or you can point to the schedules and the actuals achieved and assert they give enough slack, and go down the "there is no evidence that ... " route, but I know different because I have witnessed it.

What actually occurs too often causes problems because of lack of diligence directly resulting from actions in haste.

I might add that a few months ago I was also warning that cabin crew were acting in haste and neglecting their legal duties before take off and landing on some of these flights. That was another counting problem - in that case the need to count Mars Bars and Scratchcards and account for them on a written list whilst they should have been attending to other matters. I hasten to add that I have seen a little less of that on recent flights.

PS I have been using low cost airlines at Stansted for as long as they have been there!
PPS Cactusdust - staff are only required to wear hi-viz jackets airside when working. If someone wears one and then behaves like they are not working/not kosher, that catches my attention. I begin to wonder who they are.

richardw

What exactly have you witnessed?

What problems have arisen?

Did you write to the airline, the CAA and Theresa Villiers regarding cabin crew neglecting their legal duties?