Christening/ baptism should I or shouldn't i?

POPPYOSCAR

GracieP wrote: »

Sorry but your post is incredibly naive and also factually wrong in 2 parts.

1. The baptismal register is relevant as far Catholic member numbers is concerned, the confirmation register is irrelevant in that regard.

2. In most regions confirmation is made at 12.

3. The baptismal figures are regularly used by Papal Nuncios for political negotiations. For example, as I have outlined they are used as a bargaining chip in the Church's refusal to pay the damages they have been court ordered to pay against their victims. They are used to prevent prosecutions of abusers and conspirators. This is why the Church has amended Canon Law to stop defections. They don't want to amend the baptism register because doing so reduces their influence.

I do not understand how they are used this way - perhaps you could enlighten me- any links to back this up?

How does the baptism register being altered reduce their influence exactly?

GracieP

poet123 wrote: »

You consider my post niave and I consider yours tainted by your familial experiences.

On a personal level you are not a full member of the church until confirmed at whatever age is deemed appropriate. It is around 14 here. At that point you make a choice. If you choose not to take the religion any further you are free to do so.

It is not possible to "undo" a rite or ritual, it has happened, the baptism register reflects that event. Its existence does not bind you to the church.

Anything beyond that is immaterial to most people. You are obviously not most people and it matters to you personally. My point was that in general it does not matter to others who are now atheist but were once baptised. As has been shown on this thread.

I see no merit in broadening the discussion to the issues raised in point 3 as I personally see no correlation.

You see no correlation between the point that the church uses baptismal figures for political influence and the fact that people can't get off the baptismal register? That political influence can affect their lives in a much more real way than their personal beliefs. If a law is changed or not changed as a result of that influence then their lives are affected.

And yes you are very naive. You are making assumptions based on how you think things should be. And yes, they should certainly be that way. However that is not factually the case. And I know this because I have researched it. I used to assume it was the way you think it is, but sadly it's not. It is for many other churches, it is not for Roman Catholicism

GracieP

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

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I do not understand how they are used this way - perhaps you could enlighten me- any links to back this up?

How does the baptism register being altered reduce their influence exactly?

Because if they can say they have 2 million members they have more influence than if they have half a million members. They lobby governments based on the size of their membership. Few MPs will oppose the Church in a region where 80% of the constituents are Catholic, many will if only 15% of the constituents are.

POPPYOSCAR

GracieP wrote: »

Because if they can say they have 2 million members they have more influence than if they have half a million members. They lobby governments based on the size of their membership. Few MPs will oppose the Church in a region where 80% of the constituents are Catholic, many will if only 15% of the constituents are.

So when a Catholic dies their name is taken off the register then?

Plans_all_plans

In response to the OP, I think that you should baptise your children. They attend Mass regularly, go to a Catholic school and will soon be coming up to their First Holy Communion. It would be a shame if they do not make their Communion, as they will not be able to fully participate in the Mass in future. It also sends the child mixed messages about their Faith.

We are practising Catholics too and our daughter was baptised early on. I think that in your circumstances, baptism and Communion are the way to go. Best wishes OP.

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

What? That's the most important bit? :eek:

Not to this particular discussion.

GracieP wrote: »

You see no correlation between the point that the church uses baptismal figures for political influence and the fact that people can't get off the baptismal register? That political influence can affect their lives in a much more real way than their personal beliefs. If a law is changed or not changed as a result of that influence then their lives are affected.

And yes you are very naive. You are making assumptions based on how you think things should be. And yes, they should certainly be that way. However that is not factually the case. And I know this because I have researched it. I used to assume it was the way you think it is, but sadly it's not. It is for many other churches, it is not for Roman Catholicism

The figures are also collated by census, to use your example, a politician worth his salt would check out the actual number of people using figures other than those given by the church if they had any cause for concern. The fact is that even many of those who no longer attend church would, if asked, describe themselves a Catholic and would be happy to figure in the official figures.

You have a personal issue for your wish to be removed from the baptismal register, most people do not, it does not make you the official spokesperson for all those who were baptised but who are now atheist.

January20

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

This is interesting.

I was also raised as a Roman Catholic,did all the usual and went to catholic schools.

However, I do not call myself a catholic and it means nothing to me that I was brought up in that faith.

Surely all that matters is what is in your own heart not that you were put through some pretty meaningless rituals?

Oh, I'm not saying I think about it every day! I don't, unless there is a discussion like this one or I hear something awful about the Catholic Church as in recent months.

However, although I agree with the last sentence of your post, I refer you to Gracie's post regarding not being able to be removed from the register. I would like to be able to do so as I disagree with so many things that the Catholic Church do/ condone/ hide/ etc. I do not want to be a member of such a Church, but I have no choice!

poet123

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

So when a Catholic dies their name is taken off the register then?

No, a baptismal register is there forever, it is a record of an event.

GracieP

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

So when a Catholic dies their name is taken off the register then?

Off the register of the living Catholics, but still on the register of previous Catholics. Historical precedent is a common tool in political lobbying. (I worked in lobbying for a couple of different NGOs and have seen this done.) Between March 2006 and April 2011 the option existed that people could defect from the Catholic Church and have the baptismal register annotated to reflect this.

However year on year more and more people were defecting and the Church was obviously not pleased about it because in April this year they changed Canon Law to not allow it any more. There are many thousands of people who used to be Catholic but have had their name removed from the baptismal register in that time period. So it has been done and is perfectly possible. But the Church were surprised and unhappy with the growing uptake of defection and without warning ceased to accept those defections 4 months ago.

gratefulforhelp_2

Hi LP this seems to have degenerated into telling you why you shouldn't be a Roman Catholic...which wasn't what you asked about, but

Nicki wrote: »

Being baptized as a child does not preclude the child making their own decisions when an adult.

Quite so.

January20 wrote: »

If you get your children christened you remove any choice from them.

If this were true then congregations would be much bigger;)

My main issue with having Baby baptised is can I stand a day with the outlaws...lucky me(??).