General discussion for (Tottenham) riots

MacMickster

edinburgher wrote: »

I'm not taking a 'right or wrong' stance over this, but there's no reason why 'poor' people wouldn't have a mobile phone.

Having travelled around the world and seen REAL poverty, I can't accept that those with money to spend on, not just a mobile phone but a state of the art mobile phone, along with expensive clothes etc can be considered to be living in poverty.

Nor can I accept even the relative poverty argument. Surely, in that case, those living in 3rd world countries and serving the wealthy in luxury 5 star all-inclusive hotels (where more food is thrown away daily than they have to feed their families all year) would respond in a similar way.

People living in genuine poverty generally have the same pride and moral standards as the wealthy. The youths involved in these riots are from a lawless underclass. They want the trappings of wealth without having to work for them.

edinburgher

Having travelled around the world and seen REAL poverty, I can't accept that those with money to spend on, not just a mobile phone but a state of the art mobile phone, along with expensive clothes etc can be considered to be living in poverty.

That was why I said 'relative' poverty.

Nor can I accept even the relative poverty argument. Surely, in that case, those living in 3rd world countries and serving the wealthy in luxury 5 star all-inclusive hotels (where more food is thrown away daily than they have to feed their families all year) would respond in a similar way.

I work for an aid agency (finishing in a few weeks). There's a direct link between poverty and conflict, so your particular example doesn't really hold up for me.

I'd also posit that people in developing countries who've known grinding poverty for their entire lives won't always feel quite as angry about it as youths in a developed (and very rich) country who feel they'll never achieve the wealth or status of the famous people they idolise. A sense of entitlement can be a big hindrance in the real world.

MacMickster

edinburgher wrote: »

I work for an aid agency (finishing in a few weeks). There's a direct link between poverty and conflict, so your particular example doesn't really hold up for me.

If I was left with a choice between stealing to feed my family or watch them starve then I would steal, and also protest/fight against the system which left me with only that choice.

If the choice is between stealing or having to make do with only a 32 inch TV then I would retain my pride and self-respect - which is what the vast majority do.

ffacoffipawb

doire wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/embed/6Gex_ya4-Oo

London rioters rob injured boy

In video, it shows what Labour has done to working people's pockets for 13 years.

edinburgher

If I was left with a choice between stealing to feed my family or watch them starve then I would steal, and also protest/fight against the system which left me with only that choice.

If the choice is between stealing or having to make do with only a 32 inch TV then I would retain my pride and self-respect - which is what the vast majority do.

I agree - but your comments don't seem to have much relation to the one of mine that you've quoted? I was simply saying that there is plenty of instability in developing countries because of poverty and that the fact that a few people got jobs in hotels looking after tourists didn't change that.

movilogo

Why govt. is shy of imposing curfew and deploying army?

StevieJ

Strategically placed black police officer standing behind Cameron.

edinburgher

Why govt. is shy of imposing curfew

Haven't some of these riots kicked off in the mid afternoon? I'm not sure what use a curfew would be with the prevalence of electronic communications making it so much easier to arrange trouble?

MacMickster

I accept the link between real poverty and conflict, but not in the case of relative poverty. The rioting in London has nothing whatsoever to do with poverty, but has everything to do with criminality.

edinburgher

The rioting in London has nothing whatsoever to do with poverty, but has everything to do with criminality.

Completely agree (and I never meant to say it did, although my comment at #381 could seem to imply it). I was just saying that people in relative poverty can still afford gadgets etc., I don't have any opinion on poverty re. rioting in the UK, apart from the fact that like you, I think greed and criminality are the real reasons behind it.