Enforcing Judgements (A lengthy rant!)

erdd2

From what you say, this guy has covered many bases to avoid payment....obviously he is well versed in cheating people and not stumping up.......there will be something he has omitted to put in place....but finding this will be tiresome....it takes stamina to get justice in this country now if you are a law abiding legal national....but it can be done...the costs can be huge though..and I do not mean financial costs. It is a decision only you can make but there are quangos and suchlike that can help

erdd2

Sparky33 wrote: »

I was under the impression that enforcement was my problem, not the court's...

Yes but given the difficulty the bailiffs and you are having.....notifying the court that their order is being flouted at the worst will get you nowhere, at the best will get you a way forward

hallowitch

With this no-nonsense experience in mind, I upgraded the CCJ through the High Court Office, got a Writ for the debt, sent it off to a High Court Enforcement Officer (which is apparently what they call Sheriffs nowadays), and sat back expecting my money to arrive pretty quickly.

No such luck, this lot seem more pathetic than the County Court Bailiff, who, let's face it, is like a f*rt in a colander. It seems that in order to fox the HCEO, all one needs to do is ignore the paperwork he leaves at your house, ignore his phone calls, and just carry on regardless. Evidently, if the debtor doesn't keep normal office hours, that's that, he simply has outwitted the HCEO, they aren't going to turn up late one evening, when they almost certainly will catch him in front of his 50" Plasma TV, van out in the drive. Oh no, far too much like hard work.

They won't even go and try to gain entry to his storage containers, which contain many thousands of pounds worth of very saleable goods, because they are inside someone else's compound! There you go folks, if you want to make the HCEO look like the impotent wuss that they are, just make sure your assets are within someone else's boundary (like maybe a company you own?). They will then go home for their tea, after another hard day's work, whining about how they can't enforce any judgements... sheeesh!

you should have went to Sherforce
http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Naked-Fish-restaurant-gutted-bailiffs/story-11957764-detail/story.html

Sparky33_2

I feared as much, but thanks again for your replies.

This chap is just another ordinary bloke who hasn't paid his bills, not a professional debt dodger, and has discovered that in actual fact, the sky doesn't fall in if you don't pay your dues, and that it's no big deal (to him). So long as he pays the VAT man every quarter, he's pretty much safe. He pays the people he continues to need to work for him, but then, when he finds a cheaper alternative, they get shafted too.

As I said before, if he was skating on the edge, was robbing Peter to pay Paul, and was going belly up sooner or later, I'd understand. This is not the case, he just doesn't answer phone calls, doesn't answer letters, and doesn't pay up when he has CCJ's against him. This debt is one of a raft of CCJs I had against him, he coughed the others up one day when the County Court Bailiff actually bumped into him. No drama, no fuss, he simply wrote them a cheque on the spot. Of course, he then e-mailed me to tell me that he'd paid the bailiff, that I'd have to wait 28 days for it to clear from them, as if to say that it was going to be my fault for the delay, as if he was on his way to pay me directly when he was collared.

Yet again, the honest bloke gets taken for a ride! After all, the money's been sitting in his account right up until the last possible moment, until he was accosted by the bailiff. It would still be there now, had he not been so unlucky.

I know another chap who would always look both ways before leaving a doorway, to see if anyone was waiting to serve papers on him. He'd keep his hands firmly in his pockets, come what may, and as far as I am aware, never got served, despite him owing the taxman, for a start, over £1million. He was considered to be a successful businessman, a pillar of the community...

Does something not stink about all this?

Sparky33_2

hallowitch wrote: »

you should have went to Sherforce
http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Naked-Fish-restaurant-gutted-bailiffs/story-11957764-detail/story.html

Ha ha. I'll give you three guesses who the toothless, pathetic, useless enforcement company is that are currently shrugging their collective shoulders?

Yep.

They weren't bailiffs though, they must have been sheriffs, now known as High Court Enforcement Officers. They are allowed to break into business premises, but cannot do the same to a debtor's house, or garage attached to a house.

Actually, the terminology error is one of the examples of why the subject of debt collection is an almighty mess - I'm pretty sure I'm right about them being sheriffs, but the article uses the word bailiff throughout. Is it any wonder that no-one, other than the chosen few, have any idea of what's legal, legit, and who can take what from whom?

If the powers-that-be really wanted to make things simpler for the man on the street, the small businessman, to get what he is owed, they'd make things a lot simpler, so everyone knew the score, and how to proceed. You can be assured that come tax deadline day, they can get their money easily enough...

RobertoMoir

I'd have to agree. The whole situation around debt enforcement is a big big mess. It achieves the seemingly impossible goal of being unfair to both sides at times and was screaming for an update back when I was a bailiff, and that's going on quite some time ago now.

I wish I had something positive to suggest. I'd suggest a garnishee order or a charging order, but I can see that at least one of those has been suggested already.

hippyadam

Have you thought about an oral examination?

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/free-legal-information/small-claims-court/enforcement.html#Oral

Basically debtor has to turn up at court and explain why he hasn't paid. I've used the threat of one to collect some cash a customer owed me once as if they repeatedly don't show it's contempt of court...

I thought the bunch you are using are supposed to be the uber-collectors? At least thats the line in their marketing stuff...

Sparky33_2

hippyadam wrote: »

I thought the bunch you are using are supposed to be the uber-collectors? At least thats the line in their marketing stuff...

Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you? My first encounter with a sheriff left a lasting impression on me, that these blokes don't mess about, they WILL get the money. After all, they only get paid from tacking their fee on top of what they collect - whereas a bailiff gets his wages even if he sits in the office all week.

Obviously this lot aren't as hot as they like to think they are. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur, it is a woman who is dealing with my case, I have to wonder whether a man would be more aggressive in collecting. I know that a collector's appearance makes no difference from a legal point of view, there's no physical stuff allowed, but from a psychological standpoint...?

I mean, if I came home and someone told me there had been a couple of MASSIVE shaven-headed thugs mooching round my car, and they'd left some paperwork, that I must ring them, I think I'd be more inclined to call than if a little lady had been there.

Of course, I'm making assumptions here, she might be built like a brick outhouse, and be their top collector... but I'm not seeing the results.

I don't even know what the score is with HCEO, as far as engaging their services goes. When I got the writ, I phoned the court service to ask where do I go from here, and they just gave me Sherfarce's number. It was only once I'd sent them the writ to enforce, I found they were a private company. I was under the impression they were working for the High Court, like a bailiff working for the County Court, not an enterprise out for their own gain. This kind of stinks to me, I should have been informed that there are other firms who could enforce this writ, I might have chosen a smaller, hungrier firm, rather than one which likes to crow how good it is.

I've no idea if I can simply send the writ to other firms at the same time, or what. Of course, I can go to a solicitor to let him deal with this stuff, but I'm obviously stoney broke.

I thought that the idea of HMCS with their Money Claim Online service was to enable the man in the street, like me, who can't just nip to his lawyer, to pursue claims in an easy to understand, stress-free fashion. In reality, it just leads you into a minefield and leaves you there. Now it seems I have to go and see a blood-sucking parasite, erm, sorry, solicitor, and let him lead me out.

For example, and this is going to make me sound stupid, but after following the steps to making a claim online, going through all of that easily enough, I came across the page describing the difference between the sheriff and bailiff. Now, on the face of it, the sheriff has more power and actually costs less to instruct, so it appears a no-brainer, if you are owed over £600, go for a sheriff. However, it doesn't explain fully the process of engaging a sheriff. Nowhere does it say that after you have applied for a writ, you then have to send it somewhere else - the court service just take their fee (about half the fee for a bailiff) and send you back a stamped piece of paper. Not even a note saying "Now send this to a sheriff".

I sat on that piece of paper for months expecting a crack team of sheriffs to be breaking down doors to get my money. Oh no, I should have known differently, silly boy, I have to actually send it myself. (Remember that if I had opted to send a bailiff out, I'd have paid the fee, in the same way, and the court service would send the order out to the relevant bailiff's office. Simple, no?)
I have been back over the online resources, and I didn't miss anything, it's just assumed that I would know how to proceed with a writ.

Jokes above about parasites aside, I appreciate that solicitors have done all their training, are professionals etc etc, and I do respect them for that. If I had real legal issues to deal with, I'd have no hesitation, pay a pro to do a pro's job.

However, at the heart of all of this, and leading back to my original rant, is the erroneous idea that one can simply fill out an online form, start a court action, and it will be nice and straightforward, all the way through to getting paid what you are owed.

Not so, and it should be made clear from the first step - "If someone doesn't want to pay, you are going to be singing for your money unless you are very lucky. Now, do you wish to:
a. start down this path with us, even though the path may peter out at any time, leaving you confused, and we will simply point you at a nonsense website, after all, we can't give legal advice, sending you round in circles until you lose your mind.
b. Go and see your professional lawyer, it's what he does.
or c. Would you like to go and polish Mr Browning?"

The worst thing about all of this court action nonsense is the way it leaves you stuck in no-man's-land. If it's a job for a professional lawyer, fine, then don't encourage me to start proceedings myself, only to leave me bewildered, worse off, and nowhere nearer to collecting what I'm due, at some point down the line.

It's like putting up a website "DIY Heart Surgery Online" detailing the process of removing a heart from a patient, without giving details of how to finish the transplant. When you ring, someone's ticker in your hand, they shrug and say you'd best go and see a heart specialist...
Why bother? It just leads to more heart-ache, so to speak.

Typical Govt BS, I guess - make it seem like they are making things less complicated, empowering every citizen, when in fact they only do part of the job, trick you into thinking they've done something for you.

Phew, another lengthy post. Anyone read all of this? Unlikely, but it's a measure of how much this is racking me off. Still, it stops me sitting there, seething...

irnbru_2

Sparky33 wrote: »

My debtor is doing well, my sources tell me he's just trousered 80k from his Mum's will. No way of me proving it, of course, let alone getting my hands on the paltry few thousand he owes me, but there you go.

Have you done a search for the Will?

hippyadam

Charging order on property? At least then you would be secured creditor...

I wont join in with your rants or this thread will end up being an opus! Suffice to say, your not alone in feeling how you do