Enforcing Judgements (A lengthy rant!)

Sparky33_2

Is there a particular section here that deals with getting money back that one is owed?

I'm about at the end of my tether with trying to recover a County Court debt, are there any debt collectors who actually have teeth?
It seems that the best way to be a Moneysavingexpert is to rack up a load of debts, not pay the bills, then, when you get taken to court and have judgements against you, simply ignore them. Ignore the bailiff, who will timidly go away, shrugging his shoulders. If you ignore him, he can't try to get you to pay, case closed.

Once upon a time, I encountered a High Court Sheriff, very impressive. A client of mine woke up, with the Sheriff breaking down the door. He was given a black bag, told to get dressed and grab whatever was immediately necessary, then GTFO, as the place was being boarded up. Good work! The fact that there was 1000s of pounds worth of my kit in that pub on a rental scheme, made me very nervous, but there was no need - NOTHING was leaving that building unless it was legitimately proved to belong to someone other than the debtor.
I presented my proof of ownership, and duly got my stuff back. Everything else was sold to pay off debts, leaving that particular chap in the gutter. Harsh, but at least his creditors could see that he had been squeezed completely dry, there was no loophole for him to slither through.

With this no-nonsense experience in mind, I upgraded the CCJ through the High Court Office, got a Writ for the debt, sent it off to a High Court Enforcement Officer (which is apparently what they call Sheriffs nowadays), and sat back expecting my money to arrive pretty quickly.

No such luck, this lot seem more pathetic than the County Court Bailiff, who, let's face it, is like a f*rt in a colander. It seems that in order to fox the HCEO, all one needs to do is ignore the paperwork he leaves at your house, ignore his phone calls, and just carry on regardless. Evidently, if the debtor doesn't keep normal office hours, that's that, he simply has outwitted the HCEO, they aren't going to turn up late one evening, when they almost certainly will catch him in front of his 50" Plasma TV, van out in the drive. Oh no, far too much like hard work.

They won't even go and try to gain entry to his storage containers, which contain many thousands of pounds worth of very saleable goods, because they are inside someone else's compound! There you go folks, if you want to make the HCEO look like the impotent wuss that they are, just make sure your assets are within someone else's boundary (like maybe a company you own?). They will then go home for their tea, after another hard day's work, whining about how they can't enforce any judgements... sheeesh!

The debtor's car, and it is his car, is registered in his partner's name, so they can't swipe it. Why can't they impound it until someone proves it doesn't belong to him, we all know that the name on the logbook is the KEEPER, not the owner?

What the hell is going on here? Is this country so far down the toilet that debt collection is just a token gesture, rather than a hands-on business? I thought it would be a growth industry. Obviously the HCEO doesn't actually need the £1500 odd that he's tacked onto the original debt he was supposed to be collecting. Times can't be hard for those guys, eh?

Since this is the section of the forum to vent, I'll state now that going the proper legal route of trying to recover money you are owed is for losers. If I had gone round to see this cretin, with Mr Browning in my pocket, I'm sure I'd have had my money. If not, I'd at least have the satisfaction of knowing the debtor wouldn't be playing much football again.

Why is there so much advice for people about what powers a debt collector has, and so little REAL advice about getting paid money you are owed? The court system is a waste of time, money and effort, they should tell you that at the outset, and perhaps advocate a little "direct action" first. I know I'd strive to pay off my debts to people who were going to turn up on my doorstep and break my legs ASAP. (I am talking about legit, fair and square debts though)

If the guy was genuinely in financial trouble, was living in a cardboard box, even if he'd spent all my money on cocaine and hookers, but was now totally broke, I wouldn't be happy, obviously, but I'd at least be able to accept he genuinely could not pay.
However, my debtor is carrying on his business as usual, has plenty of good work on, continues living in his nice house with his wife, sorry, long-term partner, and doesn't give a toss. I know, from talking to his associates, that he's doing very well for himself, having nice holidays etc etc, yet I'm having a hard time now because of his refusal to pay his debts, or even to talk about paying. The County Court judge's words were "This chap's taking the...erm..mickey. He's simply stalling for no good reason. You did the work, he needs to pay you."
And to think that once upon a time, I considered this debtor a friend.

But, where's the justice, the incentive to be honest, pay one's bills, try to succeed, if a judgement is just a BS, unenforceable piece of paper? It's like trying someone for murder, sentencing him to life in jail, then telling him he will only go to prison if he takes himself off to The Scrubs, no-one will force him. At least prison overcrowding would be dealt with, only idiots like me who paly by the rules would be inside.

It's about time the civil courts were assessed on their performance, and culled accordingly. And by "performance" I mean "how many debts were paid up", not how many pieces of paper were stamped. How much public money goes into this joke of a system?

It's taken 18 years of self-employment to make me see beyond any doubt that for every "successful" businessman out there, there is absolutely going to be a string of more honest people he has left in the gutter with cut throats. And that includes all the big boys, though I'm not going to name anyone, because they can afford lawyers. No-one succeeds by paying their way, they only succeed by stiffing others, be it competitors, colleagues, or even their own mother. Not to mention the other "honorable" practices such as sinking their Ltd Company and starting another one the same day, or tax avoidance etc...


Ah well, typing this out has taken the edge off my anger, prevented me from sending him a nail-bomb. Still, the fact remains that he hasn't coughed up, and I have bills to pay. The system is stacked against anyone who is a good, law-abiding citizen, who tries to pay his way.
The thing is that now I have decided that I am not going to pay my way, as I always have done. Why should I pay my bills, my taxes, my VAT, my fuel duty, etc etc? I'm obviously a mug!

And so, the society we live in slips a little further into the mire as another mug decides he's had enough of struggling to do the right thing...


Anyway, thank you for reading!

robpw2

perhaps you could try your approach and when you end up in prison for intimidation or for assualt you can write a book on how unjust the world is

Azari

You need to take the advice of a solicitor but one thing that springs to mind is a garnishee order.

I'm not sure, though, of the gamut of debts where this type of order is available.

lincroft1710

By not doing "the right thing" you'll just bring yourself down to his level and probably lose some self respect.

Sparky33_2

robpw2 wrote: »

perhaps you could try your approach and when you end up in prison for intimidation or for assualt you can write a book on how unjust the world is

Um, my approach has been to take him to court, obtain a Writ of Fieri Facias, and let the HCEO try to recover the debt. How is that going to land me in prison?

Oh, hang on, you are referring to the part about Mr Browning. Well, no danger of me going down that route, I'm far too sane (these days) to be doing that. I'd certainly not be posting about it online if it were a real option! I'm stupid, yes, but not that stupid.

Mind you, I wonder how many people might have thought Derek Bird, for example, was being a crybaby, and should have gone away to write a book about how unfair life is? I imagine they weren't quite so clever when they were staring down the barrel of his gun...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he was right, rather that you shouldn't be surprised when desperate people do desperate things that no sane individual would consider. It happens, then the survivors can't fathom why...

Anyway, that's not the point here. My lengthy rant was, in essence, that no matter what anyone tells you, if someone doesn't want to pay you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to get your money, there is too much room for wriggling in this day and age, and perhaps we ought to change that. Either that, or I might change sides, why should I pay any bills if all I have to do is ignore the official debt collectors? Sounds like a win to me.

Actually, I think perhaps we should go back to the good old days of the Fleet Prison for Debtors, those who owe money should be banged up, none of this "going bankrupt" nonsense. It would instill a sense of true responsibility in those who were stupid enough to run up debts.

Maybe the poor would suffer more than the better-off, but hey, they could write a book about "how unjust the world is", right? Life's tough, I'm sure I wouldn't be quite as hard done by as some of the half-wits around here, I could trample them underfoot. Good call, thanks for your input.

erdd2

Most people readily comply with financial orders made by the court, whether the order has been negotiated by agreement or made by a Judge following a contested hearing. In some cases, however, steps have to be taken to make one of the parties (the defaulting party) obey the order. The courts have a wide range of remedies, which include:

Attachment of earnings order. This type of order requires the defaulting party’s employer to deduct payments from his or her salary at source. It is often used as a way of enforcing maintenance orders.

Charging order. This type of order gives the person enforcing the order a charge over one of the defaulting party’s assets for the amount due. Assets that can be charged include houses and shares. Once a charging order has been obtained then an application can be made to the court for the asset to be sold so that debt can be paid off out of the proceeds of sale.

Committal. The court has the power to commit a defaulting party to prison for failing to obey a court order. However, committal proceedings cannot be used to enforce payment of money. They can only be used to enforce performance of an order or undertaking to perform a specific act (such as to transfer a property or a life insurance policy or make a child available for contact).

Execution of instrument. The Judge has the power to sign an instrument (i.e. document) if the defaulting party refuses to do so, for example, if the court has ordered that a property be transferred but one party refuses to sign the transfer.

Third party debt order. The court can order people or institutions who owe money to the defaulting party (the third party) to pay it instead to satisfy a debt owed by him/her under a court order. Usually third party debt orders are made against the bank at which the defaulting party has a bank account. The order freezes the account and requires the bank to pay sufficient funds from the account to settle the debt.

Judgment summons. This is a procedure by which a defaulting party is cross examined before a Judge and, if they fail to explain satisfactorily why they have not complied with the court order, they can be sent to prison. However, the impact of the Human Rights Act 1998 means that the same standard of proof and evidential rights as in criminal trials applies.

There are also other forms of enforcement less commonly used. These include sequestration (under which the assets of the defaulting party are seized and placed under the control of a sequestrator appointed by the court), bankruptcy (under which the defaulting party is made bankrupt though matrimonial orders are not provable in bankruptcy, oral examination (whereby the defaulting party is required to attend court and examined by a court official so as to disclose details of his financial position) and registration in the Magistrates Court (whereby the order is registered in a Magistrates Court which then takes over responsibility for enforcement of the order).

Sparky33_2

Azari wrote: »

You need to take the advice of a solicitor but one thing that springs to mind is a garnishee order.

I'm not sure, though, of the gamut of debts where this type of order is available.

I'll look into a Garnishee order, though I had an idea it was only useful if the debtor has a job. This guy is self-employed - and as we all know, the aim of any self-employed person is to show that, on paper, he is worthless and earns nothing.

Looks like I'm going to have to borrow some money to see a solicitor. Great. He'll want his pound of flesh, whatever the outcome!

I'll get there in the end, I think. My debtor is doing well, my sources tell me he's just trousered 80k from his Mum's will. No way of me proving it, of course, let alone getting my hands on the paltry few thousand he owes me, but there you go. Like I say, the odds are stacked in favour of someone who doesn't want to pay his dues. Perhaps that's why the country, as a whole, is currently under so much financial stress, because people simply don't understand the gravity of debt?

I think I may adopt the saying of that great orator, erm, Roy "Chubby" Brown - "Pay for nowt, go to court, f*** 'em. They can't hang you for it". Wise words, it seems.

erdd2

A Court order is just that ...an order made by the court. If the Court dont know their order is not being complied with they cannot do anything. Sols, barristers, advocates, counsel, etc..cannot change a court order...they can !!!! you off/wind you up/bankrupt you in the process...but they CANNOT change a court order. Courts dont like their orders being defied and predominantly and quite rightly award costs to be borne by the non compliant party...and tell the court....no need for a sol to do this. The Court has options to choose from to help you enforce your order.

Sparky33_2

Thanks for the time and effort you took there Erdd2, but your post doesn't make me feel any more hopeful!

As I understand it, the CCJ I obtained this time last year simply confirms that the debtor owes me the money. (He did put in a counterclaim, then didn't bother to turn up to court). IIRC, it doesn't "order" the debtor pay up, it just says that he is liable for it. This is my problem, it means nothing. It's up to pretty weak enforcement agencies to recover the debt. IMHO, a judge should tell the debtor - you WILL pay this debt within X days, or you WILL go to prison until you come up with the lolly.

If you tell a judge to "**** off" you are in trouble. If you tell a bailiff or sheriff the same, he will, with his tail between his legs. It seems that there's an illogical step down in authority there.

erdd2 wrote: »

Charging order. This type of order gives the person enforcing the order a charge over one of the defaulting party’s assets for the amount due. Assets that can be charged include houses and shares. Once a charging order has been obtained then an application can be made to the court for the asset to be sold so that debt can be paid off out of the proceeds of sale.

This seems promising, but the debtor shares a house with his long-term partner. I assume it will be difficult to turf her out a a house she part owns with a man who is not her spouse. (There's a tip to all those who feel like being a Dontpayyourbillsexpert.com - Don't marry, then you can say everything belongs to someone who has no proveable connection to you and your affairs. Not a legal connection, anyway, like a marriage certificate)


Do you have any statistics to back up the assertion that "most people readily comply with financial orders made by the court"? I would hope that you are right, but in my experience, "most people" actually don't. A bailiff walks away from their house, telling you that their 02 plate BMW is not worth taking, that it won't cover the debt. Thanks very much, case closed.

I truly believe that times have changed over the past decade, that debt is treated far more lightly than before, it's trivialised. That's all well and good, that you can't be hanged for owing money, but for the little guys who are owed, like me, it's a serious problem. I've been denied my money, in the same way as if I had been robbed. Both ways mean I have no money in my wallet, and can't pay my day-to-day bills, despite me working hard for what I am owed.

I would be horrified to have a CCJ against me, I'd want to talk it through with my creditor, come to an arrangement, pay my debt off, before it got to court. To me, a CCJ is a stigma, same as bankruptcy. As with most honest people though, I'm finally catching on, far too late, that it's not, it means nothing. Perhaps it's a sign when someone ignores a court summons, that should be when I realise I'm not going to get this money, this person doesn't care, or knows that they can't be forced to pay. Only honest people immediately panic and arrange to pay. Those people are getting rarer, IMHO.

Once upon a time I would dread my name appearing as a bankrupt in the paper. Right here and now, I'm changing my opinion. Maybe I ought to take as much credit as I can get my hands on, and if I can't pay everyone I owe...whoops, gone bankrupt, bye bye! I don't own my own home, what's for me to fear? If I can't beat 'em, I might as well join 'em.

Sparky33_2

erdd2 wrote: »

A Court order is just that ...an order made by the court. If the Court dont know their order is not being complied with they cannot do anything. Sols, barristers, advocates, counsel, etc..cannot change a court order...they can !!!! you off/wind you up/bankrupt you in the process...but they CANNOT change a court order. Courts dont like their orders being defied and predominantly and quite rightly award costs to be borne by the non compliant party...and tell the court....no need for a sol to do this. The Court has options to choose from to help you enforce your order.

OK, thanks again, I'll get the paperwork out, I'm no expert, obviously!
So you are saying that I can return to the court, tell them that the debtor has ignored the sheriff's paperwork, ignored their phone calls, and has failed to pay me my money, and they will help me enforce my judgement?

I was under the impression that enforcement was my problem, not the court's...

erdd2

Some of the orders, judgements, agreements that I have seen written up by legal professionals beggars belief! There is a mindset that believes all legal practitioners have a clients best interests at heart.......a load of bull....as you say, your order is wholly lacking in specification...it appears to have failed to give you no clout/protection/means to collect.