Advice on claiming stolen money.

bigmike20vt_2

Hi

A week and a half ago I was robbed in spain. I belive my pin number was stolen after i used a cash point and then my cards / cash taken from my wallet.

I made it more complicated by admitting the cards were returned - which i was told that is quite common in the hope that after cloning them they can continue to steal from me without me cancelling the cards. (i went in my wallet and aside from the missing money the cards were in the wrong place)

The bank returned my money pending receiving my legal stuff, and then today decided to decline my refund and took the money again.

They will not tell me why but advised that a letter will be placed in the post detailing it. I feel sick in the same weekend our villa was kicked in and cleaned out so am already claiming on travel insuance for separate incident. (having never claimed before in 18 years with barclays)

does anyone here have any experience in this, should I give up or is it worth me fighting my corner.

cheers

meer53

bigmike20vt wrote: »

Hi

A week and a half ago I was robbed in spain. I belive my pin number was stolen after i used a cash point and then my cards / cash taken from my wallet.

I made it more complicated by admitting the cards were returned - which i was told that is quite common in the hope that after cloning them they can continue to steal from me without me cancelling the cards. (i went in my wallet and aside from the missing money the cards were in the wrong place)

The bank returned my money pending receiving my legal stuff, and then today decided to decline my refund and took the money again.

They will not tell me why but advised that a letter will be placed in the post detailing it. I feel sick in the same weekend our villa was kicked in and cleaned out so am already claiming on travel insuance for separate incident. (having never claimed before in 18 years with barclays)

does anyone here have any experience in this, should I give up or is it worth me fighting my corner.

cheers

It's very unusual for cards to be stolen then returned. When you say you "believe" this is what happened, what do you mean ? Why would someone who has robbed you, then cloned your card details bother to put them back in your wallet ? And how would they do that ?

Barclays can tell whether a counterfeit card was used, as they've now decided to hold you liable, this indicates that they believe the card and PIN were used and that it wasn't a cloned card. If there had been a skimming device on the ATM which you used, then the fraudster wouldnt need your card, they just produce another one with your details. Is it possible that someone you were away with could have used your card and PIN without you knowing ? This is likely to be the explanation in your case.

bigmike20vt_2

Hi
Thanks for your thoughts. I say I believe because in truth I am not sure.

All i know is i used the ATM
Some time later I checked my wallet (not sure of the time max 1 hr) and I was missing money and my cards were stuffed in my wallet upside down.

This is all i KNOW.

The people with me are trusted friends, and I am convinced would never steal from me - hell 2 of them paid for me to go on holiday when i was in monetary strife a few years ago so that just isnt an option.

Anything else from me would just be guesswork, but my card had the max money taken from the ATM and (thank god) had a couple of over £1K transactions declined before i noticed and phone to report suspicious activity.

I chatted with a barman the following night and it was him who suggested the cards being returned would be in the hope that I would not suspect the cards and so that the scally / scallies could continue to try to spank my account whilst on my hols.

But that is just guesswork. The reason I am dissapointed with my bank is that I have banked with them for 18 years, my ISA is with them, all my accounts and I was considering re-mortgaging with them.

In all that time I have never made a claim from them, be it from their insurance or the bank directly so for them to presumably think I am trying to defraud them is unfortunate esp for what is to them a paltry sum of money (£277).


meer53 you seem to know what you are talking about, so I wonder in you could give me your thoughts on the following.

If the bank do not help with the matter, is it worth my time making a claim on my travel insurance or will I run into the same issues?

thanks again

bigmike20vt_2

well I got the letter from the bank, as suspected they say I must not have guarded my pin well enough, which I am torn with.

Maybe they have a point, but at the end of the day, how many people make sure they are not being shoulder surfed when at an ATM.

i read somewhere however they even IF that was the case, I should only be liable for the 1st £50 anyway.

can anyone confirm if this is the case, or if i could claim on my travel insurance.

OR should I just suck it up, accept it and not lose sleep over it?

thanks

M.

jalexa

bigmike20vt wrote: »

well I got the letter from the bank, as suspected they say I must not have guarded my pin well enough,

Well if that is their only argument I think you should appeal that through their complaint's procedure and then through the Financial Ombudsman Service.

"Guarding" a PIN (alone) is impossible. It's only the combination of PIN and original card in the same place at the same time (where you are), that is quite difficult to explain away.

Is the letter clear whether "fraudulent" withdrawals were made with the original card or a clone or both?

Edit:

The rules binding the bank are here...

http://www.fsahandbook.info/FSA/html/handbook/BCOBS/5/1

at 5.1.11 & 5.1.12.

Somewhat difficult to follow. You might need help. As I said the card issue is harder than the PIN issue. For example it's not "gross negligence" to be "shoulder surfed". It is "gross negligence" to write the PIN on the card or on a piece of paper in the same wallet.

The gist of the rules is that you do not need to prove anything, the bank needs to "prove" it "wasn't fraud" (or you were grossly negligent).

I cannot say what the whole letter says, only that the PIN argument is "poor".

tanith

I don't understand , was your wallet out of your sight at anytime? If not how would it be possible for someone to take your cards and return them without your knowledge?

browneyedbazzi

bigmike20vt wrote: »

i read somewhere however they even IF that was the case, I should only be liable for the 1st £50 anyway.

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but a card of mine was stolen and used with my PIN number - my account was cleaned out and they went into unauthorised overdraft (within about 20 minutes of my wallet being lifted).

I never got the cash that I had in the account back but the overdraft, except the first £50 was forgiven. I was told at the time that they could only hold me responsible for the first £50 of the overdraft (but seemingly provided my PIN was used the thieves were welcome to the cash from the account).

This was with HSBC (who were horrible throughout) - I have since been told that I should have fought them over it and I may have won. I was extremely angry and closed my accounts with them immediately - when asked why I explained quite loudly during a busy lunchtime

Annisele

The Financial Ombudsman Service explains the £50 thing here. (In general that note is out of date - the Banking Code stuff in particular has been replaced - but AFAIK it's still accurate on the £50). So, it makes a difference whether we're talking about a debit card or a credit card, and (if a debit card) it makes a difference whether or not there was an overdraft.

meer53

bigmike20vt wrote: »

Hi
Thanks for your thoughts. I say I believe because in truth I am not sure.

All i know is i used the ATM
Some time later I checked my wallet (not sure of the time max 1 hr) and I was missing money and my cards were stuffed in my wallet upside down.

This is all i KNOW.

The people with me are trusted friends, and I am convinced would never steal from me - hell 2 of them paid for me to go on holiday when i was in monetary strife a few years ago so that just isnt an option.

Anything else from me would just be guesswork, but my card had the max money taken from the ATM and (thank god) had a couple of over £1K transactions declined before i noticed and phone to report suspicious activity.

I chatted with a barman the following night and it was him who suggested the cards being returned would be in the hope that I would not suspect the cards and so that the scally / scallies could continue to try to spank my account whilst on my hols.

But that is just guesswork. The reason I am dissapointed with my bank is that I have banked with them for 18 years, my ISA is with them, all my accounts and I was considering re-mortgaging with them.

In all that time I have never made a claim from them, be it from their insurance or the bank directly so for them to presumably think I am trying to defraud them is unfortunate esp for what is to them a paltry sum of money (£277).


meer53 you seem to know what you are talking about, so I wonder in you could give me your thoughts on the following.

If the bank do not help with the matter, is it worth my time making a claim on my travel insurance or will I run into the same issues?

thanks again

Don't know about your travel insurance, but i would assume that they would liaise with your bank about what happened so i wouldn't hold out much hope of a refund from them. It's worth speaking to them though.

Working in Fraud myself, i can see why they won't refund you, i would have made the same decision. The card and PIN were used, the card wasn't reported as stolen, you still had it in your possession, if you've told them that you can't remember what happened that won't have helped either. If you look at it from an outsiders point of view, how could someone take your cards, withdraw the maximum amount from an ATM and also make 2 transactions for £1k AND return your cards within an hour ? It doesn't add up. Are you sure it was only an hour ? Where were you in that hour ? Was the ATM used the same one you used ? Why would someone who has stolen your cards bother to return them to you ? These are all questions the bank will have looked at when they've made their decision.

As for holding you liable for £50 this only applies if the funds taken were from an overdraft facility. You can be held fully liable for any credit funds in your account.

bigmike20vt_2

Thanks for the info guys.

I CAN see why it looks dodgy and the only reasons I can surmise are the ones I have already put above.

Regardless of that however it still sucks to be a victim and yet clearly not believed and suspected of being a fraudster.

ohh well....

Edit I just phoned the apeals people, last chance and if i fail I will let it lie.

I suggested they look at the cctv footage on the cashpoint and it will make it clear it was not me withdrawing money.

Do you guys think there is any chance they will do this?

dung_a82

According to the new regulations - The Payment Services Regulations 2009 (published by HM Treasury in Oct 2009), if the user denies having authorised an executed payment transaction, the use of a payment instrument recorded by the payment service provider is not in itself necessarily sufficient to prove the payment transaction was authorised by the payer (regulation 60) - which means the genuine card along with CHIP & PIN would not be enough for bank to refuse your claim.

It also states that it is the responsibility of banks to prove the payment transaction was authenticated and also request banks to immediately refund the amount of the unauthorised payment transaction to the payer and where applicable, restore the debited payment account to the state it would have been in had the unauthorised payment transaction not taken place (regulation 61). In your case, bank already refunded immediately but then reclaimed in belief that they have sufficient evidences to prove it is you who authorised the transaction.

However, I agree with jalexa that the argument on PIN is poor and that you are only liable for a maximum of £50. This not only is stated in the regulation but also in updated FSA handbook.There is an unknown here though of whether you reported your lost cards in time or not? If the transactions are after you reported your lost cards or if you reported your lost cards reasonable quickly (but still not quickly enough for banks to stop the fraudulent transactions), then you have higher opportunities to win your money back. In my cousin's case, his wallet was lost when traveling in Italia and he reported it quickly enough to prevent pending thousands of pounds transactions but still couple still went through. Thanks to the banks (HSBC, Barclays, Santander, Capital One..) those funds were still recovered.


Found an interesting case on Money Mail, which you could take as reference:
thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-1714572/Banks-ignore-rules-on-chip-and-Pin-fraud.html

(Sorry could not post link)