Export Tariff - "Opting Out" - Can I keep my own energy please?

ClaimYourEnergy

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Dirty - nuclear / coal / whatever
Clean - wind / whatever
Storage - Hydro / battery's / whatever
Local / national / intercontinental transport

Then there is waste, risk , transport, depreciation, maintenance, distribution and redistribution, moving the commodity from off-peak to on-peak availability. it always comes down to storage. The storage is always thousands of times more expensive than the electricity it stores.

Lets simplify it with a Duracell PP3 in your smoke alarm :

Battery = a bottle that stores lectrickery
Lectrickery = the amount of energy you can get into the bottle
Power = how quickly you can empty or fill the bottle

The problem you have is the Duracell battery costs thousands of times more than the lectrickery it contains. According to this website a kWh of lectrickery costs 15.43p in March this year but the bottle [ storage ] they hold it in costs £2.33. So the cost of the lectrickery from storage is magnitudes higher than it is from your 13a socket. Storing the few watts required for you mobile or smoke alarm may well be cost-bearable for the convenience it gives, but try doing that from solar panels at night or driving your Nissan Leaf under those same storage rules and you will see why multiplying energy storage need to GiGawatts is still, and will remain for decades somewhere between insurmountable and insurmountable.

If it wasn't we would have had cars powered by cheap lectrickery sice the 60's

Thanks Richie-from-the-Boro,

I believe the points you make help explain the way the Export Tariff has been caculated the way it has. And I do appreciate the time you have taken (and others) to point this out to me.

I guess there is far more cost involved in this storage and transfer of electricity than I ever imagined there could be. I had thought that the grid would have had plenty of "storage" ready to accept my generated electricty easily and simply. I also did not account for the loss in power as it travelled back and forth.

As I said in the previous post, I guess we have to trust that the final calculated costs for the Export Tariff have been worked out in such a way that they take this into account accurately.

What I will do now, however, is contact my energy provider again and ask them just how much it costs them to store and deliver units of energy to get an understanding of how it would affect my own generated energy. At least then, I will be better informed and be able to make a better decision about the value of the Export Tariff.

Many thanks all.

Unless there are more posts, I'm off to be now .... Need to recharge my own energies! :rotfl:

CYE

grahamc2003

However, if you can divorce your view of the Generation Tariff being so tied in with the Export Tariff, then surely you can see th epoint about the value of the Export Tariff as a standalone argument?

No, I can't. I can't see your viewpoint at all.

There's a system in place to reward people who have solar panels. The system is very generous. Those who have one can gain quite a lot, paid for by all users.

You wish to split the system into various components and simply ignore the extremely generaous component, and treat the less generous additional component as somehow unfair.

If you want the fit, then you have to agree to the terms of the fit system. If you don't like the fit system, then don't sign up to it. Simply go off-grid, then none of your generated energy will go to your supplier.

You are simply saying the current generous subsidy (paid for by some who £12k is an unthinkable fortune) isn't generous enough, and you want those who are gifting you that generous subsidy to simply gift you more. Sheesh, talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

ClaimYourEnergy

albyota wrote: »

I don't get it, you seem to think you should be entitled to use the complex national grid as if were your own personal battery storage system, If you are home during the day use the power from the PV system, if your out, set up timeclocks to have appliances operate when PV is at medium to maximum output, (rare in the UK, I know), your fridge and freezer and any other equipment on standby will use it, in summer after 7pm it will not be producing anything at all of any worth,......8-30 to 4pm in the winter if your lucky. Buy a battery and an PSW inverter and feed your lights.

Hi albyota,

As I have explained in previous posts ... NOT for free! I am more than happy to pay for that, but I had/have no idea how much that costs? Do you know?

I did consider buying some batteries, and may still do yet, but had thought it would be cheaper simply to use existing architecture. In my ignorance, I thought this would be negligible or not even register on the grid to be of any cost. I was wrong about that from what other posters have pointed out to me. However, I still do not know exactly how much this does cost.

As I say in the post above, I intend to ask the utility provider how much this is per unit and then do some more maths to determine if:

A) Whether I can pay them to store th eexcess energy at a better rate than they are currently offering, or

Invest in some batteries to store it myself, or

C) Do nothing as it is not worth the extra expense.

The bottom line is, I can now ask the right questions because I now have a better idea that extra significant storage and transfer costs are involved. To reiterate, I had no idea as to the significant costs involved in storage and delivery of units of electricty by the provider. I thought the costs would be negligible to them. In this, it seems I am wrong ... but will find out when I contact them on Monday.

CYE

ClaimYourEnergy

grahamc2003 wrote: »

No, I can't. I can't see your viewpoint at all.

There's a system in place to reward people who have solar panels. The system is very generous. Those who have one can gain quite a lot, paid for by all users.

You wish to split the system into various components and simply ignore the extremely generaous component, and treat the less generous additional component as somehow unfair.

If you want the fit, then you have to agree to the terms of the fit system. If you don't like the fit system, then don't sign up to it. Simply go off-grid, then none of your generated energy will go to your supplier.

You are simply saying the current generous subsidy (paid for by some who £12k is an unthinkable fortune) isn't generous enough, and you want those who are gifting you that generous subsidy to simply gift you more. Sheesh, talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Hi Graham2003,

It is NOT I that split the tariffs, but the government .. or whoever you wish to say set up the tariffs. This is a simple fact and they are seperate components. The "opt in" and "opt out" choice on the form demonstrates this quite clearly.

You seem to be taking this personally, which I do not understand? Do you really begrudge people investing in such technology? If you were in a position to do so, wouldn't you invest in it? You don't have to of course, but you do have the option if your circumstances allow it. My own circumstances prevent me from doing many things (due to ill health), but I do not begrudge others from doing the things I cannot do. This is not about what is or is not gained, but me trying to understand what is fair with respect to the Export Tariff. Just because I may be receiving a generous offer (in your opinion) in the Generation Tariff, it should not stop you from critically reviewing the terms of the Export Tariff.

And as for signing in or out of the FIT, I *can* opt in or opt out, and IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE GENERATION PART OF THE PAYMENT! That is why I am talking about two completely different aspects of what we are calling the "FIT system".

CYE

grahamc2003

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Hi Graham2003,

It is NOT I that split the tariffs, but the government .. or whoever you wish to say set up the tariffs. This is a simple fact and they are seperate components. The "opt in" and "opt out" choice on the form demonstrates this quite clearly.

You seem to be taking this personally, which I do not understand? Do you really begrudge people investing in such technology? If you were in a position to do so, wouldn't you invest in it? You don't have to of course, but you do have the option if your circumstances allow it. My own circumstances prevent me from doing many things (due to ill health), but I do not begrudge others from doing the things I cannot do. This is not about what is or is not gained, but me trying to understand what is fair with respect to the Export Tariff. Just because I may be receiving a generous offer (in your opinion) in the Generation Tariff, it should not stop you from critically reviewing the terms of the Export Tariff.

And as for signing in or out of the FIT, I *can* opt in or opt out, and IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE GENERATION PART OF THE PAYMENT! That is why I am talking about two completely different aspects of what we are calling the "FIT system".

CYE

Don't know why you think I'm 'taking it personally'.

I don't 'begrudge' anyone who has solar panels - 'free' or paid for. I think the system of fits is totally rediculous and does no good whatsoever and lots of harm to the less well off, but then again, that's neither here nor there in this converstaion.

I am in a position to buy solar panels, but, at the moment, I choose not to, just too much hassle, and they'd spoil the look of my beautiful Victorian house. (In fact, you don't need any cash to have panels in some cases, if your house has the right aspect and roof area, it's easy to get free solar panels).

What you want is not on offer. Simples. It's not on offer because the subsidy is already high enough in the opinion of those who decide these things, and already far too generous (43.3p too generous in fact) in my opinion, considering the total consequencies of these subsidies.

Cardew

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Hi Graham2003,

It is NOT I that split the tariffs, but the government .. or whoever you wish to say set up the tariffs. This is a simple fact and they are seperate components. The "opt in" and "opt out" choice on the form demonstrates this quite clearly.


CYE

If you got a, still generous, 23.3p/kWh as your FIT payment and 23.1p/kWh for each kWh exported, would you be happy?

Andy_WSM

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

I should NOT be overcharged for the units Ihave generated and the grid stores for me until I need to use then again.

Who's going to pay to maintain the grid? The grid isn't STORING anything, that isn't what it does. The power you export will instantaneously be used by someone else, when you need to use "your" power again it will have to be generated at one of the many power stations.

If you want storage then you need to invest in many thousands of pounds of batteries and additional inverters. - At YOUR expense, not ours.

ClaimYourEnergy

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Don't know why you think I'm 'taking it personally'.

I don't 'begrudge' anyone who has solar panels - 'free' or paid for. I think the system of fits is totally rediculous and does no good whatsoever and lots of harm to the less well off, but then again, that's neither here nor there in this converstaion.

I am in a position to buy solar panels, but, at the moment, I choose not to, just too much hassle, and they'd spoil the look of my beautiful Victorian house. (In fact, you don't need any cash to have panels in some cases, if your house has the right aspect and roof area, it's easy to get free solar panels).

What you want is not on offer. Simples. It's not on offer because the subsidy is already high enough in the opinion of those who decide these things, and already far too generous (43.3p too generous in fact) in my opinion, considering the total consequencies of these subsidies.

Hi Graham2003,

Fair enough, it just seemed to be the case. If not, then good.

For myself, knowing now that there is a significant cost involved for storing and transferring energy for the utility companies, I have decided to look into storing the energy for myself using batteries. At first glance I thought it would cost nearly £1000, but I need to look into this more carefully, and it may cost much more. However, these should pay for themselves within a couple of years. So, as long as the batteries last at least a few years, then I will accomplish what I was after without using the utility services for the same thing. The irony is, I will also still be able to able to claim the Export Tariff ... which seems rediculous to me. I am hoping having batteries will also have the added benefit of keeping me in power if there is a power cut! Hope so!

You are right that you can acquire free solar panels, but then someone else is potentially earning off your time and trouble of having the units installed on your property. I know you probably don't see it this way, but I also see that part of the incentive payment is to encourage people to take out this technology even if it does look a bit "tacky" on the roof, but because it will do something to help the environment. One could even argue that if someone is in the position to have panels installed (like yourself) that they ought to ... to help the environment, irrespective of their potential investment value finacially. After all, the government are investing a "fair" amount to get you to do so. Tongue in cheek here, no offence meant, but trying to emphasise a point about the "fairness" of FITs....> Maybe you won't be convinced to take on board the "hassle" and have them on your "beautiful Victorian roof" until they offer an even bigger incentive? Would you put up with the hassle for £1 a unit? Or, maybe you are so well off that you can afford to ignore the incentives? The point I am trying to make here, is that what may appear fair or overpriced is very subjective - as the difference between you and I prove. I do not believe either is wrong, we just have different values at what makes one invest in something.

As I say in previous posts (and above), now that I know there is a significant cost involved for the utility companies storing and transporting my energy, I no longer have a problem with the concept. I was ignorant of these facts, and nobody from the utility companies or Ofgem, or even the DECC explained this to me. I now make the assumption that the cost of storage, transfer in both directions must come to about 12p per unit, which is why they only pay 15 - 12 = 3.1 pence (or calculations around these kind of figures anyway). I will no longer give thought to the possibility it costs them less than this, as using batteries will make the point invalid.

Thanks for keeping the conversation going .... BUT, if anybody like me asks this question again, make sure you tell them about the costs involved to store and transfer the energy when not in immediate use, as this is what finally made sense to me. The argument that the overall "offer" that the FITs was overly generous in the first place did nothing to sway my fears of an unfair Export Tariff - and this is why your arguments did not hold sway with me. As I believe I said, we may not be in agreement about the rationality (overall fairness) of the FITs system, but love it or hate it, there were also aspects that I did not understand the reasoning behind .... and on the surface of it, the Export Tariff part appeared unfair from how I understood metering to work.

Cheers!

CYE

ClaimYourEnergy

Cardew wrote: »

If you got a, still generous, 23.3p/kWh as your FIT payment and 23.1p/kWh for each kWh exported, would you be happy?

Hi Cardew,

This is a very good question, and highlights a point I just made in the previous post about what different people think of as "fair and reasonable". The conclusion I came to, is it varies from person to person, and some people will prefer one type of oncentive plan, while another person, another plan.

(By the way, I am resolving the problem with batteries. See the previous post.)

As for the example you give above, then, knowing the way the metering now works (which only came to light after I filled in the electric companies form to do with the Export Tariff), I would not be happy at all, as the Exported units are still subject normal prices upon return to my home.

This was my simple (and incorrect) understanding of the Export Tariff prior to filling in the utility form:- I thought I used all the energy I made for free (throughout the course of a year), and if I generated anything over and above that I would receive 3.1 p per unit exported back to the grid. Note, I was aware that the calculators made an assumption about the potential export value, but as its overall value to the amount I thought I would be saving through the energy I was generating and using for free was relatively small, I was unconcerned if I did not generate enough to be able to gain anything from exporting. And this is how it looked like it worked when the meter was going backwards. It was only when I rang the utility company to ask why they wanted to know about the meter going backwards (I thought it was obvious it would from time to time due to generated energy) that it came to light that it meant they had to put in a "stop meter". This, of course, changed my whole understanding of how and why the Export Tariff was calculated as it was. In my simple and uneducated viewpoint, I thought stopping the meter while it "banked" what I was creating was unfair because I was unaware of the costs involved for the utility company for doing this "banking". To me, it just looked like they took it for only 3.1p one second, only to charge me full price the next, with no reason for the sudden price increase!

Obviously, now I know the reasons, I can understand it and have made the decision to invest in batteries to take the "transport and storage" costs away from the utility companies, because I can do it cheaper by using batteries.

Does that make sense?

CYE

ClaimYourEnergy

Andy_WSM wrote: »

Who's going to pay to maintain the grid? The grid isn't STORING anything, that isn't what it does. The power you export will instantaneously be used by someone else, when you need to use "your" power again it will have to be generated at one of the many power stations.

If you want storage then you need to invest in many thousands of pounds of batteries and additional inverters. - At YOUR expense, not ours.

Hi Andy,

STORING ... That's not what other posters have said, and I will ignore this point for now as it will only serve to complicate and raise the debate again, which I thought had been resolved. :silenced:

I am not sure why you then mention "storage" as a cost in your next paragraph if you ignore it in the first.

Anyway, do not worry, I have an idea of the expense involved now, which I was unaware before.

CYE