Export Tariff - "Opting Out" - Can I keep my own energy please?

Cardew

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Hi HappyMJ,

I guess you are right in saying that the Generation Tariff is ultimately paid for by the public via taxes.

CYE

This is your fundamental misconception. There is no Government financing at all and thus it has no affect on Taxes at all.

The FITs are paid for by a levy on all electricity customers.

Cardew

HappyMJ wrote: »

So the point of solar generation is what exactly? I always thought it saved at least 1 power station from being built...Maybe not..I never understood wind power myself.

It is 'Green' clean energy and will save the world from [STRIKE]Global warming [/STRIKE]climate change.

Cardew

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Also, please note: Ultimately, I am NOT arguing for backward meters, BUT fair payment of energy provided.

The point is, as it currently stands, the electricty companies are gaining from the energy you create, but as I have shown, these "issues" can be addressed and people properly paid for what they generate.

CYE

Again you really must understand the basics.

You are paid, 43.3p for each kWh you generate, plus 3.1p/kWh for 50% of the electricity you generate. so 44.85p per kWh

In addition you can use as much of your generated electricity as you wish - free of charge and without affecting those payments above.

Now be very clear on this point! ALL electricity consumers are paying for those subsidies you receive, including - to be emotive - poor pensioners in a rundown council flat.

What you are saying is that 44.85p per kWh is not enough and you should recieve over 50p/kWh - which we pay!

ClaimYourEnergy

Cardew wrote: »

This is your fundamental misconception. There is no Government financing at all and thus it has no affect on Taxes at all.

The FITs are paid for by a levy on all electricity customers.

Hi Cardew,

OK, while I was unaware that the government were raisng the subsidy via the utility companies, it is indeed them who arranged it. From an earlier post ...

Where will the money come from?

From the government, with payments made via the utilities companies. Jeremy Leggett, founder and chairman of Solarcentury, argues that each household will only see a rise of £8.50 per year in their bills but this is only a projected figure.

OK, even from just this one quote, I can see that others are subsidising. The point being, I did not know that the government were going to raise it via the utility companies rather than through normal taxation. However, even so, I still stand by the fact that there are many other "taxes" that I would not agree with, but I still pay into them. Maybe this is just one that can help me for a change. As I say in a post above, however, it is probably best not to be side-tracked by this, as we both agree that others do help subsidise the panels via a government decision.

CYE

Richie-from-the-Boro

ClaimYourEnergy,

For grid storage come back about 2050 and ask again, it might just be at the very beginning provided the worlds governments put zi££ions into research starting this bonfire night. Put something like the following into your search engine:

- grid storage 2011
- energy storage 2011
- electrochemical energy storage for grid applications 2011

The fact of the matter is bolting more and more renewable's on the grid is unworkable, and storage is cost prohibitive, even if the cost of grid storage was to come down 50% [ish] it would only pay for the energy storage losses of 50% [ish]. Until we can develop a cost effective bulk redistribution storage system that will shift wind / panel / marine-wave / etc energy from off-peak to on-peak availability this whole debate is sterile, and all energy customers in the UK will continue subsidising your panels.

Cardew

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Hi Cardew,

OK, while I was unaware that the government were raisng the subsidy via the utility companies, it is indeed them who arranged it. From an earlier post ...

Where will the money come from?

From the government, with payments made via the utilities companies. Jeremy Leggett, founder and chairman of Solarcentury, argues that each household will only see a rise of £8.50 per year in their bills but this is only a projected figure.

OK, even from just this one quote, I can see that others are subsidising. The point being, I did not know that the government were going to raise it via the utility companies rather than through normal taxation. However, even so, I still stand by the fact that there are many other "taxes" that I would not agree with, but I still pay into them. Maybe this is just one that can help me for a change. As I say in a post above, however, it is probably best not to be side-tracked by this, as we both agree that others do help subsidise the panels via a government decision.

CYE

The Government - in the shape of the Energy Regulator OFGEM are only administering and regulating the scheme -

http://www.inbalance-energy.co.uk/articles/solar_pv_uk_feed_in_tariffs.html

In April 2010 the UK solar PV Feed in Tariff also known as the 'Clean Energy Cashback Scheme' came into force. The solar PV Feed in Tariff (FIT) is a government backed incentive administered and regulated by OFGEM. The Feed in Tariff obliges the traditional energy companies (known in this context as FIT Licensees) to pay the owner of a solar PV system above market rates for the clean energy that they generate and also guarantees an additional price (per kWh) for the energy that they sell/export.

ClaimYourEnergy

Cardew wrote: »

Again you really must understand the basics.

You are paid, 43.3p for each kWh you generate, plus 3.1p/kWh for 50% of the electricity you generate. so 44.85p per kWh

In addition you can use as much of your generated electricity as you wish - free of charge and without affecting those payments above.

Now be very clear on this point! ALL electricity consumers are paying for those subsidies you receive, including - to be emotive - poor pensioners in a rundown council flat.

What you are saying is that 44.85p per kWh is not enough and you should recieve over 50p/kWh - which we pay!

Hi Cardew,

See some of my previous posts with resepct to the differences between the Generation Tariff and the Export Tarrif. There is a difference between the two!

I am NOT arguing against the Generation Tariff, which I agree has been subsidised by others via an increase in utility bills as sanctioned by the government. This is good for some people and bad for others, as are many "taxes" (or equivilent payments) that affect people in different ways.

HOWEVER, the Export Tariff is seperate from the main tariff and is something a person can opt in or out of and is between the energy provider and utility company. As I say in an earlier post, I am arguing for the fair payment of energy created and supplied / bought back from the utility companies. Nothing to do with the Generate Tariff where some people lose out.

To keep this simple, we can leave the argument for the Generation tariff completely out of the picture, as I am in full agreement with you and everybody else about this, even if I at first thought the government were subsidising it via taxes rather than utility bills. It is still the government and people are still subsidising .... we agree on this point.

Please help me to discuss the issue with the Export tariff, which surely I have clearly defined by now?

CYE

grahamc2003

Just for a bit of clarity - there is no loss of energy into the ether. When there is an instantaneous surplus of generation over demand, the excess energy is stored as an addition to the angular kinetic energy in the system (i.e. the generator sets - all of them - increase their rpm a tiny fraction), and the grid frequency rises. The converse is also true. The frequency varies a little all the time around the 50 Hz average.

Power station do not generate at their maximum capacity all the time - indeed, at any time, some will be increasing their output, others decreasing, some coming online (i.e. synching) and some desynching. Even Nukes do it, only their ramp rates are slower than coal which itself is slower than Gas Turbines.

Getting back on topic and the quest for a 'fair' selling price of excess solar energy to the local grid - I'd say a fair price is the price the supplier can buy at during that period. On average, during the day, I'd say that buying price is about 3.1p (coincidence I'm sure). Most business sell at a higher price than they buy at (suppliers sell electricity at about 3 times the purchase price, on average).

On another point, the key factor where it can be stated that solar subsidies are paid for by other users is the fact that the regulator has allowed any such subsidy costs to be passed onto customers - the cost doesn't come from their margin.

albyota

I have 3kWp of PV, the FIT 43.3p/kWh and export 3.1p/kWh is paid by the energy suppliers (BG in my case) by a levy on everyones electricity bill, including mine. During daylight, the surplus that I do not use goes into the grid and will be used by my nearest neighbours fridge, freezer, TV, etc...however, I also charge a car battery during the day (small amount of current) and run that through a pure sign wave inverter at night and run the lights off it.

What We should be doing is building Hydro plants with large reservoirs all over the UK and using Solar PV during the day to power pumps that pump water from lower reservoir to upper....then at peak times at night 'Advert breaks', and morning 'Kettle on' these plants would provide the surge power, now this would also have to be paid by everyone.

What we are trying to do in this country is ween ourselves off the fossil fuels, but it will take a long time and cost a lot of money, If our dithering governments and generating power companies took action long ago, we would have replaced our ageing power stations, with....nuclear, carbon capture coal, solar, wind, coastal wind, tidal, hydro, Biomass etc.....
Now if that did happen, our fuels bills would be where they are now, the investment then, would have had to be paid for by everyone.

grahamc2003

How things change - it was only last week that someone was arguing that for most solar panel owners, their motivation was not money but the thought of helping the environment!

Just a general point on the subject of this thread.