Export Tariff - "Opting Out" - Can I keep my own energy please?

ClaimYourEnergy

Hi All,

In my last post I queried the fact that by electricity suppliers giving me an Export Tariff for unused energy, I believed I was potentially losing out. (Find my other post to see the reasons why.) NB: This is opting out of the Export Tariff (3.1) only and NOT the Generation Tariff (43.3).

Now, in a related question, how do I keep and use the energy I create for myself? i.e. If I "opt out" of their offer and keep the energy I create for myself, how can I keep and use it? Where does it go?

OK, this post is worded in such a way that highlights the same problem as my last post, but I also hope in such a way that demonstrates my point more clearly. For instance, I want to be able to keep and use all the energy I create and avoid selling it to the electricity company - because I know I do not generate enough for excess.

If anybody has chosen to "opt out" and made any other sort of arrangement, I would be interested to hear what happened. Tomorrow, I hope to find the time to ask my supplier the same question, as I expect they are shut now.

Thanks. CYE

penrhyn

Turn on your immersion heater, that will soak up your electricty.

ClaimYourEnergy

penrhyn wrote: »

Turn on your immersion heater, that will soak up your electricty.

Unfortunately, this is not a solution to the problem that exists ....

You see, unless there is a means to "store" your generated electricity, the electricity board will still gain from your "bad" use. Unless the PV panels were generating a high enough amount to power the immersion heater all the time they were being used, then:-

a) You will be charged for when the PV panels are not generating enough power.
b) Lose the power you generate when the immersion is no longer being used.

You would have thought that you could simply use the electricty you generate for free, wouldn't you. However, the current way electricity boards have their meters set up does not allow for this .... and it is this point I am trying to bring to people's attention.

This is also why I want to know what happens when we "opt out" of an export tariff. Unfortunately that department is closed today, so I still do not have an answer. I hope I can keep all my generated energy, which seems only fair, but I cannot see how they do it without a different means of metering.

Again, has anybody "opted out" of the Export Tariff? If so, what has happened for you?

CYE

HappyMJ

I don't think you quite understand how it all works. If you generate 4000kWh in a year and consume 4000kWh then you will be exporting most of it as you won't be using it during the day. Think of the network as your battery. You will use probably about 1000kWh during the day when you are all at work and when the panels are generating it then another 2000kWh during the evening when you at at home cooking, heating etc some will still be covered by the panels in the early evening and another 1000kWh overnight fridges, freezers, overnight lights. You can store the excess from the generated electric during the day but it will be uneconomical. Think large batteries.

So I'd take the 3p for the excess and then find the best tariff for buying it back at the other times such as winter when you won't be generating much at all.

penrhyn

Maybe you should consider going off grid, store all your unused electricity in batteries for use when the sun isn't shining.
My original suggestion holds if you only switch on the immersion when you are generating..
To be honest though I don't see what your problem with using the network as your back up is.

ClaimYourEnergy

HappyMJ wrote: »

I don't think you quite understand how it all works. If you generate 4000kWh in a year and consume 4000kWh then you will be exporting most of it as you won't be using it during the day. Think of the network as your battery. You will use probably about 1000kWh during the day when you are all at work and when the panels are generating it then another 2000kWh during the evening when you at at home cooking, heating etc some will still be covered by the panels in the early evening and another 1000kWh overnight fridges, freezers, overnight lights. You can store the excess from the generated electric during the day but it will be uneconomical. Think large batteries.

So I'd take the 3p for the excess and then find the best tariff for buying it back at the other times such as winter when you won't be generating much at all.

Hi HappyMJ,

You have highlighted my point, in that your logic is based upon the flawed logic that the electricity board are trying to sell us and the problem it raises due to the way the meters work: Basically, you cannot generate 4000 KWh (and consume it!) and also Export most of it! You can only consume it or export it, not both!

This following is very important to realise:

The electricty board want to sell us this idea that you can have both, because it sounds great (i.e. we get an export bonus for not having anything to truly give), but because they ensure usage meters "stop" when generating electricty it works very much against the consumer.

Let me explain by way of examples ...

If you generate 4000 KWh and end up using 4000 KWh in the same year, why should you pay more for your energy? Just because you generate it at a different rate of using it, as long as it balances out in the course of a year, why can't you use what you generate for free? i.e. You generate 4000 KWh and use 4000 KWh in a year - zero owing! Do you agree with this?

(However, this would also mean you Export nothing of course, but this is the least of our concerns compared to what the electricty meters do to us ... I explain next.)

Here is the reason ....

First, the idea of batteries you mention .... Logically, if you are using all of the energy you generate, then there will be nothing left to charge the batteries. There is another argument for batteries, but it only serves as a red herring and so I won't argue this point for now, as the rest of my arument should explain the reason well enough.

Anyway ... back to the main point: You said this, "Think of the network as your battery." This is exactly what I want to think (and you rightly point out as the correct way to think), but this is NOT what is happening! And I am so glad that you raise it like this because after the points I am about to explain, I hope you will be as infuriated as I am about the fact that this is NOT what they are doing!

First, if the network did act as a huge battery, then there would be no argument from me and all my posts would never have been made. And my argument for backward meters is because what you just said about "the network acting as your battery" would hold true *if* the meters installed for your electrical usage moved backwards when you were generating excess energy!

However, many electricty boards want to ensure your meter does NOT move backwards - and by doing so, they are actually depriving you of using your "stored free energy". Instead, they say we will pay you an estimated 50% usage at 3.1 pence - and then immediately (by the fact that your meter will only move forards) charge you 15p (or there abouts) for using it!

In other words, all the while you generate electricty, the electricty board are lapping it up at 3.1 pence to you, only to charge you 15 p when you want to use it again! The minute your energy goes to them (as a supposed export), you have to buy it back at full cost! They are NOT "acting as a battery", which both you and I would be on full agreement with and accept, but exploit the fact that you do not use the energy you create the moment you create it!

And what is worse, there is a really simple answer already in place in many situations to ensure that you are being treated fairly. i.e.If you meter moved backwards, it is accurately recording your energy as stored in the network, ready for you to use again when you need it. However, electricty boards recognise that they will lose a lot of revenue by doing this and don't want you to do it - even though it was your energy!

It's not like there is a huge burden laid on them even to store the electric for the short period it needs to be stored. If anything, "borrowing" your electric for the short period while you are not using it,actually does them a favour in the long term!

By accepting the 3.1 pence Export Tariff (@ 50% of the units generated), you are effectively giving away electricity that you could use for free if they stored it for a very short period of time - about 12 hours for most people - as most people would use their electricty they generated in a day by the end of the day. However, while they have no problems storing it, they will be charging you full price for it again.

So, you get 3.1 pence for every other unit, whereas, they will then charge you full price when you come to use it only a few minutes/hours later.

In other words, if you do not generate enough electricty to cover your annual usage, it makes common sense that you:-

a) Cannot possibly have enough left to Export.
b) You do NOT want to export it anyway, as you will get a bigger saving by keeping (and eventually using) the electricty you generated for yourself.

This is NOT a hard problem for the electricty boards to resolve - in fact, they go out of their way to cause it so that they get more money out of your generated energy, while hiding behind a "export tariff" that appears too good to be true .... and of course, we all know what that means, if it looks to good to be true, then it is .... and this is exactly why I am trying to draw people's attention to it ....

It really is costing people ... and simply should not be! Everybody should be getting behind this and ensuring they get a fair deal for the energy they have generated.

I hope I have explained myself well enough. Please keep asking questions if you still do not understand what I am trying to say, as it will save you (and others) hundreds of pounds if we can get the bodies concerned to treat us more fairly.

CYE

ClaimYourEnergy

penrhyn wrote: »

Maybe you should consider going off grid, store all your unused electricity in batteries for use when the sun isn't shining.
My original suggestion holds if you only switch on the immersion when you are generating..
To be honest though I don't see what your problem with using the network as your back up is.

See my above post .... The problem is that the electricty boards are NOT acting as a network back up. If they did, then I would never have posted.

See my post above and please reply if you have any questions, or better still, if you see my point and can support what I am trying to say.

As another point, I actually spoke to someone at the "Dept Energy and Climate Change" and they agreed that there is a problem with this. I won't go into more details for now, but am trying to ensure other people can also see where they are being "hoodwinked".

CYE

grahamc2003

I think everyone sees your 'point' which you take so long to try to describe. What you don't like is the supplier buying your surplus energy at 3.3p/kwh, then selling you energy at 11p/kwh. Well - tough, that is what they offer (for very good reasons, as I have exlained in another thread, which you declared 'wrong'. Your solar power is highly subsidised already (by everyone with an electricity account, a fact you refuse to accept), and allowing a backward spinning meter would simply increase that largesse on our involuntary part even further.

You don't have to export anything if you don't want - simply arrange a bank of batteries and some control hardware to divert any excess generation into them. Make sure it can take around 3.8kw at whatever volatge the panels generate at, and a capacity of around 50kwh to allow for high generation/low usage days. Let us know how you get on, and the cost of such a storage system. Doing that, you'd get 43.3p for each kwh you generate (a free gift from other account holders, a rising number of whom are in fuel poverty), plus you'd use it all too.

Cardew

Some companies do not have to participate in the FIT payment scheme. Also you can get your electricity from, say BG and, say EON deal with your FIT payments and exported electricity.

So take this scenario with BG supplying electricity and EON dealing with FIT. You produce 3,200kWh pa, from your PV system and use 25%(800kWh) in your house and you need a further 2,000kWh PA from the mains which is supplied by BG.(your annual consumption is thus 2,800kWh)

Under your proposal your meter will run backwards 2,400kWh(3,200 - 800kWh).

So BG have supplied you with 2,000kWh, but your meter has run back 2,400kWh. So for supplying you with 2,000kWh BG have to charge you nothing and indeed give you a rebate for 400kWh!!!!!!

So you get:

1. 800kWh of 'free' electricity from your panels.

2. EON gives you 3,200 x 43.3p + 1,600 x 3.1p.

3. BG give you 2,000kWh of free electricity plus a rebate for 400kWh i.e. You derive an income from BG!

ClaimYourEnergy

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I think everyone sees your 'point' which you take so long to try to describe. What you don't like is the supplier buying your surplus energy at 3.3p/kwh, then selling you energy at 11p/kwh. Well - tough, that is what they offer (for very good reasons, as I have exlained in another thread, which you declared 'wrong'. Your solar power is highly subsidised already (by everyone with an electricity account, a fact you refuse to accept), and allowing a backward spinning meter would simply increase that largesse on our involuntary part even further.

You don't have to export anything if you don't want - simply arrange a bank of batteries and some control hardware to divert any excess generation into them. Make sure it can take around 3.8kw at whatever volatge the panels generate at, and a capacity of around 50kwh to allow for high generation/low usage days. Let us know how you get on, and the cost of such a storage system. Doing that, you'd get 43.3p for each kwh you generate (a free gift from other account holders, a rising number of whom are in fuel poverty), plus you'd use it all too.

Hi Graham2003,

Please state the source of your information. It's all very well saying you (as another electricity customer) are subsidising this, but this is the first I have heard of it and I have never seen any data to support what you are saying. On the contrary, I have shown you to sites that describe how the finacing is by the government. Don't take it personally, but just because you say it, does not make it so. Give me proper feedback with source, as it may help me understand what you are trying to say.

I have looked at getting batteries. I reckon it would cost around £1000 to do what I need. However, I don't see the point when there is architecture already in place to resolve the issue quite easily already.

Please Graham, do give me links to understand this "extra cost" for you, because I truly do not see it mantioned anywhere and is why I believe you are wrong.

CYE

HappyMJ

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Hi Graham2003,

Please state the source of your information. It's all very well saying you (as another electricity customer) are subsidising this, but this is the first I have heard of it and I have never seen any data to support what you are saying. On the contrary, I have shown you to sites that describe how the finacing is by the government. Don't take it personally, but just because you say it, does not make it so. Give me proper feedback with source, as it may help me understand what you are trying to say.

I have looked at getting batteries. I reckon it would cost around £1000 to do what I need. However, I don't see the point when there is architecture already in place to resolve the issue quite easily already.

Please Graham, do give me links to understand this "extra cost" for you, because I truly do not see it mantioned anywhere and is why I believe you are wrong.

CYE

It's all in the legislation. It'll take quite a bit of reading and understanding but the energy suppliers are obliged to pay for the energy generated from your solar system. They have to raise the money from somewhere and they add it to the per unit rate on all consumers. The government does not pay for it (as you seem to believe)....and even if they did then they would have to raise the money from somewhere and that would be on taxes on everybody so everyone who does not have a solar system is paying you for the energy you generate. In the long run it's a good thing as we don't need as many coal-fired, gas-fired or nuclear power stations to be built.

There is no architecture already in place to store excess capacity. If too much energy is generated then is goes unused...into the ether..that's a reason why E7 night rates are so cheap. The night rates are cheap to encourage people to use energy at night as they physically cannot turn off a power station at night the power stations must run 24 hours a day at full capacity. A coal fired or nuclear power station takes 24 hours to start from cold.