Backward Meters With PV Panels - Who's The Thief?

ClaimYourEnergy

Hi All,

I just responded in another thread (cannot post a link because I am a newbie), but felt this post may warrant a fresh post:

Taken from the post above:

.....

Having a meter that runs backwards is, in my opionion, probably the most accurate way of truly tracking what is used and fed back to the supplier. To say that the owner of a PV system should have a meter replaced that is runing backwards, is, unfair at best, and "extortion" by the electricity supplier at worst. Here's why ...

If a meter goes backwards (because the PV systems are generating more than a person is currently using), then the backward meter "stores" what the panels have produced for the owner. However, in the course of the same day, it is more than likely going to be used and the meter move forward again. The generated/used energy balances itself out and the PV owner gets to keep and use the energy they have created in a day.

Now, let's assume the electricity board comes in a fits a new meter that is adjusted to not go backwards. The moment the PV panels produce excess energy, the electricty board is gaining all that energy, which, the moment your meter starts to move forward again, they will charge their going rate for it. Just because you did not use the energy YOU produced the same second it was produced, they charge you the full cost of the unit after paying you only 3.1 p for passing it onto them! (And this only half the time.) By stopping your meter from accurately recording your excess on the same meter you then use to acquire electricity a few minutes later, you get charged the huge difference between the export tariff and your usage tariff! When I found this out, I immediately complained to the energy provider and explained that this was totally unfair and I did not agree with this.

Now, let me quickly add, I am not condoning anything sinister here or illegal in my opinion. However, having a dial that goes a few units backards, only to be used a little later in the same day should not be considered theft at all, but a good and proper use of the energy that the panels are providing. Just because the electricty board are acting as the storage for a few minutes (or even days say in the course of the change of weather and seasons), it should not give them the right to charge you (the generator) to use the energy you created! The system copes just as easily taking in the energy as it does returning it and should not be any reason to charge for it.

There is a really simple solution to the Export Tariff situation and that is to provide meters that run backwards and check the readings every quarter or better still, every year! As this will take into account seasonal changes and allow a careful user to use the energy they created wisely. At the end of the year, if the meter reads negative (and the owner has created more energy than they used), then the electricty supplier can pay the 3.1 p per unit as agreed, which they can sell to anybody else that wants it for a profit. Both sides happy! On the other hand, if the meter reads positive (where the panel owner has used more energy than they have created), then they should pay what they owe at the normal rate. NB: This can even be estimated or kept on top of over the course of months if the supplier really wanted to be funny about it. However, I would even pay a few hundred quid up front to the supplier to keep them happy, as long as they paid back what I did not use at the end of the term.

I have already contacted my own electricty supplier and said as much - and while I have currently opted in for the Export Tariff, I said I would happily ignore this "benefit" until I knew whether I had or had not generated enough energy to qualify for it. What I strongly disagree with, is the electricity suppliers offering to alter my meter for the following reasons:-

These were all said to me when I asked about this question:

1) I would benefit from a stopped meter because I would avoid estimated bills.

2) The current meter would have problems with the "polarity".

The bottom line is, if I had fiddled with the meter and stopped it from running forwards, you can guarantee they would be on me like a ton of bricks ... and rightly so! However, now that the "dials have turned" (as it were), what a nerve they have to try to stop it from running in the opposite direction. Has their super accurate system suddenly developed a fault that needs addressing. No! They realise that owners that create this electricty will and should greatly reduce their reliance on the electricity supplier. A "quick fix" for them is to have a kind of "stealth tax" system that appears to offer a reward by the way of an Export Tariff based upon an estimated percentage of your time at home at the price of charging you for the energy you just produced for free at their normal cost!

I left it with the supplier saying that I believe over the course of a year I do not believe my system will generate enough energy to make the meter move forward in that time, even if it might move forward occassionally on a very sunny day. I also said if they felt I was being unfair, to NOT supply me the additional Export Tariff, even though I have currently applied for it. The bottom line is, I do NOT want to be unfair to my supplier by taking a payment that I have not earned, BUT, in the same token, I do not expect to pay full price for some energy that I had just produced for free only a few minutes earlier.

When "threatened" with legal action, I even said that I will cross that bridge when it comes to it because I truly believe they are not giving me a fair deal. I was told to contact the Energy Trust Organisation (I think that's what they were called) and Ofgem. I spoke to someone of the first group and the chap there agreed with my calculations and said that while the supplier had no legal right to change the meter, that they could "insist". I replied that I could also "insist" that they do NOT. I have left a message with Ofgem, but have not had a reply to date.

I would even go as far to say that the electricity suppliers are being unfair in their dealings in this situation and taking advantage of those who have not looked closer at this. And I actually find it truly offensive that a supplier has the audacity to even try to take money from us in this way and hope that someone in higher authority will address this aweful injustice. I am prepared to contact my MP and the papers about this if my supplier push it further.

Think of the absurdities of trying to use the energy as you generate it to avoid extra expense: By trying to save money by using the electricty I generate as it comes in, I am more likely to use it when its the most expensive for the supplier to pass on and for me to buy - during the daytime hours. However, if the electricity board allow a simple storage for a few hours (by a backward meter), then I can use the stored electricity later in the evening, and potentially when the supplier can charge less. So, basically, by not allowing a backward meter, the electricty suppliers will channel PV owners to use energy at the most expensive time, which suppliers could have taken in (via export) and use elsewhere as demanded, and then give the energy back to the PV owner at a potentially cheaper rate later on in the day.

The bottom line is, a backward meter should never be considered ILLEGAL. Think about this logically. How can it be? On the other hand, stoppng a meter from running backwards should definitely be considered illegal and I hope someone can draw this to the attention of the right people who can force the energy providers to be more fair in their dealing swith people who are generating their own power.

Simply put ... Claim Your Energy!

TIMMY85

I do not know much about FIT and solar panel systems but I thought that the payment made per kWh produced is greater than is paid for each kWh used which is why so many companies have sprung up offering to install systems free under a 'rent a roof' idea.

grahamc2003

You don't seem to have mentioned the 43p you get for each unit you generate. Given your views, I expect you must strongly object to taking 43p for a unit of energy which you them use yourself for free.

I think a fair solution would be to let you have a backward spinning meter in exchange for foregoing the fit. Fair deal?

At the moment, all other electricity users have to pay for the solar energy you export at around 88p/kwh. A backward spinning meter would increase that cost to around £1/kwh, under the usual assumptions. I don't know about all other electricity accouint holders, but I personally think I'm already subsidising your solar generation enough without a further subsidy a backward spinning meter would cause.

Cardew

As I said on the other thread, this is just a 'wind-up'!

ClaimYourEnergy

Hi All,

PLEASE ONLY RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO REDUCE DUPLICATION.

No, this is NOT a wind up. (Also posted in the other thread.) Have I missed something?

The Generate Tariff is NOT the same thing as the Export Tariff. The government cover the 43.3 p per KWH for the energy you produce and replaces the government grant they used to give to help encourage people to invest in greener energy. That's how I understand it. What has it got to do with the energy you are producing?

When the tariffs end, do you still want to be paying for energy that you just produced for free at the cost that the energy supplier charges - because you did not use it the very second you produced it? That is what a stopped meter does!

I am NOT saying forgo the Generation Tariff, but we are not being fairly treated for the way we generate energy with PV panels.

Please ask me questions or explain to me why you think having a "stopped" meter rather than one that goes backwards is a fair deal?

CYE

grahamc2003

ClaimYourEnergy wrote: »

Hi All,

PLEASE ONLY RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO REDUCE DUPLICATION.

No, this is NOT a wind up. (Also posted in the other thread.) Have I missed something?

The Generate Tariff is NOT the same thing as the Export Tariff. The government cover the 43.3 p per KWH for the energy you produce and replaces the government grant they used to give to help encourage people to invest in greener energy. That's how I understand it. What has it got to do with the energy you are producing?

When the tariffs end, do you still want to be paying for enery that you just produced for the energy supplier cost instead of "free" like you just produced it.

I am NOT saying forgo the Generation Tariff, but we are not being fairly treated for the way we generate energy with PV panels.

Please ask me questions or explain to me why you think having a "stopped" meter rather than one that goes backwards is a fair deal?

CYE

No such thing as a 'Generate Tariff'. There is a Feed in tariff, which pays a massive 43.3p.kwh of solar electricity generated, even though some of it is used by the householder. It isn't the government who pay the fit, it is all other electricity users who have a loading on their bill to do so, via their suppliers.

You ask for responses, but you have simply ignored my previous response - why do you think other users should pay for electricity you generate at a rate of £1/kwh under your proposals as opposed to 88p/kwh currently, for something which has a retail price of about 11p, and a wholesale price of around 4 or 5p/kwh?

ClaimYourEnergy

grahamc2003 wrote: »

No such thing as a 'Generate Tariff'. There is a Feed in tariff, which pays a massive 43.3p.kwh of solar electricity generated, even though some of it is used by the householder. It isn't the government who pay the fit, it is all other electricity users who have a loading on their bill to do so, via their suppliers.

You ask for responses, but you have simply ignored my previous response - why do you think other users should pay for electricity you generate at a rate of £1/kwh under your proposals as opposed to 88p/kwh currently, for something which has a retail price of about 11p, and a wholesale price of around 4 or 5p/kwh?

Hi Graham2003,

This is where you are wrong. And there are *many* calculation sites that show exactly how the Generate Tariff is different from the Export Tariff and why you have the option on forms to either "opt in" or "opt out" of the Export Tariff section of the payment. Here is a link to an example of a calculator:

http: //www .energyfits.co.uk/calculator/#anchor (If you copy and paste this link, there are two spaces to remove or else it will not work properly.)

(As I am a newbie, this site des not allow me to post links directly. However, remove the spaces from the above link to get to the example calulator.)

Also, see here: http: //www .fitariffs.co.uk/FITs/principles/export/

In brief, other users are *NOT* subsidising the PV owners. Why on earth do you think this?


The 43.3 p per KW is subsidised by the government to encourage an investment in "greener energy". They have a target to meet to reduce CO2 emmisions and encouraging homeowners to invest in renewable energy is a good way and relatively inexpensive way to help reach this target. The government have set up a body to monitor this process and have arranged payments to owners who produce their own energy via the electricity boards who can monitor the amount generated. In effect, the electricity board monitor how much we generate (because they have the equipment in place to measure it) and the government trust their readings and pay the electricity board the subsidy, which they in turn pass on to us. The electricty board do NOT take payments from other customers to subsidise these payments. Where on earth do you get this information? Many people only buy PV panels because the government have given them a means to do so by offering such a "reasonable" subsidy. Otherwise, why would somebody invest £12000 in them? Notice I say "reasonable", because there is still some risk on the part of the investor, as the return on such investment is based upon the weather and the performance of the panels over the period of years they are supposed to run. Current calculation sites (like the one above), give a rough estimate of the kind of return you can expect from investing such a large amount of money. Most calculate around 7 - 10%, which is not bad and comparable to any other investment one might make on the stock market. However, I for one am happier to risk the weather than current business affairs. And it is a better return than the banks current rates. NB: There is still a risk in the 25 years though, that the investment will lose compared to other investments, even with the banks if interest rates improve. The bottom line here, is that the Generate Tariff is NOT what I am arguing for or against. It is just a means to an end and one that the goverment are using as much for their own agenda as well as an incentive to people to invest in such greener energy.

NOW... The Export Tariff .... Note how it is calculated as a seperate income on FIT calulators? Also, if you ever have to fill in a form with an electricty supplier, they ask if you wish to "opt in" or "opt out" of their "Export Tariff" system. Why you may ask? Well, I tried to get to the bottom of this myself and have contacted the electricty board and Ofgem, bth with no real joy and my main concerns remain unanswered and I believe are related to the whole point of my argument.... which is basically, the tariff actually "blinds" a person to what is actually going on with respect to the energy they generate and is why I compare it to a "stealth tax". For, on the surface of it, being paid even a few pence (better than nothing surely?) appears to be a bonus. BUT, when you look closer at how they are actually calculating it, then everybody (including yourself) should be very annoyed at their subtlety, and I will explain why in more detail now ...

First, let me say that I agree fully in the principle of the system in place. i.e. 43.3 pence per unit for the Generation Tariff and 3.1 pence per unit for the Export Tariff. On the surface of it, that sounds absolutely fine and you and I would (I hope) be in absolute agreement. Yet, here is where it goes wrong .....

By the very way the electrcity boards make an assumption about your usage and do not like to allow "backward meters" they are effectively preventing you from using the energy you created for free! The reason being, simply because a stopped meter means that the moment you do not use your "free" energy, the electricty board take it (pay you 3.1 pence for every other unit you generate - the assumtion they make) and they charge you full price for the ame unit if you then go to use it only seconds after you generated it. (The principle is the same even if it was a few days after you generate it. I will explain why in a minute.)

Let's take an annual working example:-

Say, for instance, I have a 3 KWh system that generates 2500 KW in a year. And my yearly usage of electricity is 3000 KW. Now, on the surface of it, many PV owner may think, "hey, this is good, I am gaining money for exporting energy that I never had enough to generate". And by normal calulations, the amount the PV owner would gain as a Eport Tariff from this example would be: 1250 (the electricty boards base export on half generated) x 3.1 p = £38.75 per year. HOWEVER, if they have stopped your meter in the course of the year, then any energy you created over and above your immediate usage is sold back to you at the expensive rate. i.e. You do not get to use the energy you generated for free! This is why I say I would rather they keep their Export Tariff and calculate the exact amount at the end of the year when total generated to total used has been taken into account. AND HERE IS WHY THIS MATTERS: In the same year, on sunny days when I generate more energy than I use, a backward meter would take note of this and allow me to use it free when I started to use electricty again. A stopped meter does not allow this. So, say for instance I generated 12 units on a sunny day and only used 6 units in the same day. (So far this appears to be the same as what the Export Tariff does.) However, on a backward meter, on the next day (which we will assume is completely overcast and I generate only 3 units), but I use 9 units, my meter will be back to square one (and appear as though I have not used any energy), which is what we want, as I will only have used the energy I produced in the last two days. i.e I generated 12 + 3 = 15 units, and then I used 6 + 9 = 15 units. Basically, in two days I use the electricty I generated and the backward meter would show this correctly.

Now, the same argument with a stopped meter: If I generate 12 and use 6 units on the first day and generate 3 on the second and use 9 units, a stopped meter will show I have used 6 units! (Even at 12.5 pence per unit, this equates to 75p) This is because a stopped meter does not "bank" what I have generated. And then the electricty board will charge me for using 6 units, even though I had generated enough of my own energy (note ahead of time!) to avoid doing so. Furthermore, the fact that the electricty board had some energy that I generated ahead of time, they effectively had greater "cash flow", so were not missing out in any way.

As for the Export Tariff as a whole, if a PV owner did manage to generate more power than they used in a year, then the 3.1 pence per excess unit should apply (which is how I expected it to work). If, on the other hand they do not generate enough power, then they should not receive any Export Tarrif, but in the same token, they should NOT be charged by the use of a stopped meter as in my example above.

In all honesty, I have not had the PV panels long enough (need a year to do the calculations properly) to work out just what the difference is. However, a backward meter has to be the fairest method for everybody, simply because it takes into account the exact amount of energy a person uses to what they generate.

In conclusion, look at this simply, do you expect to pay anybody for the energy you generate in your property? E.g. If you had PV panels and generated 2500 KW in a year and used 5000 KW in a year, would you have expected to have your bills halve in price based on the free energy your panels have generated? If you answer "yes" to this, then you are arguing for backward moving meters. However, in such a case, you would also not be receiving any Export Tariff because you did not generate enough energy to do so.

To repeat and emphasise, this has nothing to do with the Generation Tariff which is supplied as an incentive to invest in greener energy by the government. It is all to do with how the electrcty boards meter your energy.

I am surprised Martin Lewis, himself, has not actually looked more into this, as it does smack of injustice to the consumer.

CYE

EDIT:

Hi Cardew & Grahamc2003,


Not wanting to be considered a "troll", I thought it best to contact you privately. However, "newbie" status prevents me from posting to each of you as I first intended. Furthermore, it was not clear if the first message I sent actually reached you (Cardew) as there were no messages in my outbox. Therefore, I hope you will both read this later on.


I want to point out that this is NOT just a matter of me being awkward, but recognising an issue of the electricity boards "mishandling" exports due to meter controls. If you check out my examples, you will see what I mean. If you ever install panels or generate your own energy, you will see the problem I have encountered and may wish to have thought about it more now.


On the other hand, if you believe I have misunderstood something, then please explain it to me. I am open to reason.

Many Thanks.

megmartin

i have just had solar panels fitted and my meter is runing backwards i notified eon they came out and said everything is fine with my meter,i am changing to n power and have just notified them with the same problem and they said the same about it runing backwards i am really worried as i dont think this should be happening can any one help

spiro

A meter that runs backwards is 'netting off', what you actually need is a meter that measures import and export on seperate registers. That way you pay the full price for the import and only get paid for what you export. However you probably dont want this as my understanding is that FiT pays you more than you would get if the true level of export was measure.

Terrylw1

megmartin wrote: »

i have just had solar panels fitted and my meter is runing backwards i notified eon they came out and said everything is fine with my meter,i am changing to n power and have just notified them with the same problem and they said the same about it runing backwards i am really worried as i dont think this should be happening can any one help

It is a problem for them and i expect you will need a backstop meter. I've heard this running backwards issue is big problem in billing customers so keep an eye on your bills and payments.

IanMcL

Sadly, my meter has just been changed by Npower. I agree with the principle of the poster though. Instead of receiving 1.55p of every unit we generate as an export tariff (they base it on 3.1p for half genereated and assume you use half), the backwards meter ides id valid.

Don't get paid an export tariff unless your meter reading is actually less than the previous quarter. However, having gernerated all the electricity, we should be able to store and use it via the electrity company instead of having to pay full price again.

Vive la revolution.