Help re costs & necessity of electrical works

travel_freak

Hi there,

Apols in advance for length of this post - will be extremely grateful for comments on all or part(s) of it from anyone who can help.

Please can anyone in the know tell me whether the following things are strictly necessary and if so a fair LABOUR only cost for doing these things?

I've had an "all in quote" for doing these works and some other non-electrical works and am trying to work out whether the overall charge is fair.

The person quoting was recommended to me and I was very impressed with the way he looked at everything thoroughly to prepare his quote but other than that I don't know him and would just like to reassure myself that what's quoted for is strictly necessary and if so that the labour cost is fair.

I've been quoted separately for the materials which I need to order myself from Screwfix who I believe to be quite cheap so I'm not worried about the materials side of things.

Many thanks in advance.

1. Electric cooker in kitchen. Currently just plugs into a socket on wall which is hidden behind the cooker on the floor. This means having to pull out cooker to get to switch which would be v. difficult.

I've been told it needs a "neon fused isolation switch above worktop" - is this correct?

2. Installing a new under counter fridge - again been told it needs a neon fused isolation switch above worktop - is this correct - don't understand why this can't just plug into normal socket?

3. Extractor fan in kitchen - currently plugs into ordinary socket (located above the fan) - been told it needs a neon fused isolation switch, is this necessary?

4. All fused isolation switches above to be wired into a new Ring Mains Circuit directly from Consumer Unit (Consumer Unit is located in kitchen so not distance involved).

5. To earth the following (earthing cable to be connected together by an earth block below consumer unit):
* incoming gas supply pipe;
* incoming water supply;
* consumer unit

6. To fit an electric shower and instal a Shower Consumer Unit next to main consumer unit (as there isn't apparently enough free circuits in the existing consumer unit).

7. Boiler (in kitchen). Have been told this currently has a fused isolation switch but that this is a problem because this switch is itself wired into a double socket which forms part of the Ring Mains Circuit. Have been told that boiler needs to be rewired into "its own independent circuit via a fused isolation switch.

Many thanks to anyone who can comment on the necessity and/or cost of doing the above things.

Regards,

andrew-b

travel_freak wrote:

1. Electric cooker in kitchen. Currently just plugs into a socket on wall which is hidden behind the cooker on the floor. This means having to pull out cooker to get to switch which would be v. difficult.

I've been told it needs a "neon fused isolation switch above worktop" - is this correct?

Doesn't have to have the neon light on it...but yes you should have an easily accessible double pole fused isolation switch within 2m of the cooker. Our kitchen fitters initially put in a neon one with an additional power socket on it but the neon had a loose connection in it so we swapped it for one without (this was a couple of weeks ago by the way). Whether you have one with a neon light depends really if you want your kitchen to look like a red light district when the lights are off! Also make sure the cooker is on it's own circuit (should have a fuse/MCB for it at the consumer unit - we have a 32A MCB for it) with at least 6mm2 power cable feeding it.

travel_freak wrote:

2. Installing a new under counter fridge - again been told it needs a neon fused isolation switch above worktop - is this correct - don't understand why this can't just plug into normal socket?

Not strictly a need for this. We have just a normal double power socket on the kitchen ring main that is mounted inside the kitchen cabinet next to the fridge with the cables to our fridge freezer and the ignition for our gas hob fed through holes in the plinth and cabinet. Again if you must have it done i'd opt for a fused switch without a neon.

travel_freak wrote:

3. Extractor fan in kitchen - currently plugs into ordinary socket (located above the fan) - been told it needs a neon fused isolation switch, is this necessary?

Not sure on this one though i'm pretty sure i read in the instruction manual for our integrated cooker hood that it should be a fused switch. We have a fused switch without neon on ours.

travel_freak wrote:

4. All fused isolation switches above to be wired into a new Ring Mains Circuit directly from Consumer Unit (Consumer Unit is located in kitchen so not distance involved).

Cooker should have it's own circuit (a simple radial one of one cable from the consumer unit to cooker isolation switch) and the rest should all be on the kitchen ring main. Isn't there already a kitchen ring main that they can pick up on? Check that the consumer unit actually has spare capacity for any new circuits...if it doesn't they may have to replace the consumer unit too.

travel_freak wrote:

5. To earth the following (earthing cable to be connected together by an earth block below consumer unit):
* incoming gas supply pipe;
* incoming water supply;
* consumer unit

This is equipotential bonding and required in line with current regs..so yep if it's not already done it needs to be so fine.

travel_freak wrote:

6. To fit an electric shower and instal a Shower Consumer Unit next to main consumer unit (as there isn't apparently enough free circuits in the existing consumer unit).

I'd ask for another quote for replacing the consumer unit with sufficient capacity to compare. How new is the existing consumer unit? If it's the old fuse sort rather than one with rcd and mcb's i'd take the opportunity to upgrade.

travel_freak wrote:

7. Boiler (in kitchen). Have been told this currently has a fused isolation switch but that this is a problem because this switch is itself wired into a double socket which forms part of the Ring Mains Circuit. Have been told that boiler needs to be rewired into "its own independent circuit via a fused isolation switch.

Shouldn't really be on the ring main no. Yes ours is on a seperate circuit with fused switch. Not another neon!

Andy

travel_freak

Thank you so much Andy for your time in preparing such a detailed reply to my ramblings! I'm just digesting all of what you've said and will post back with any further thoughts/queries.

I think the problem with the existing ring main in the kitchen - from what I understood my builder to say, was that it looks like what's there at the moment is a bit of a DIY disaster and potentially dangerous (I've just bought the property so don't know anything of the history - I thought everything was fine but as you can see I've had some nasty surprises!).

Anyway, he said he couldn't tell if certain things had been wired in to other things where they shouldn't have been and I think that's why he has said he wants to put in a new ring main circuit (?) for some of the stuff he now has to do to rectify.

Thanks again and I'd be really grateful if anyone has any thoughts on what would be a fair price for doing all of this work. The quote I've had seems really scary but I am unused to getting these sorts of works done so it might be that it is completely fair. Just looking for reassurance really.

Many thanks.

roger56

Sounds to me from what you have posted that your electrician has got it about right. For your own safety, do let a qualified electrician do the work.

Do you know how old your installation is? I ask because item 5 if missing is worrying, these earths must be present for your safety.

If you do buy your own materials, check with your electrician before buying.
He will know which are easier to fit, and which will give a good service life.
there is nothing worse than trying to fit "naff" fittings.
MK tend to be top of the price range but are very good quality.
BG are good middle priced fittings.

The reasoning for a fused isolation switch:
- A ring final is in effect two 2.5mm T+E wires in parallel, and it is usually protected at the consumer unit by a 32A "fuse" (MCB).
- The socket below the worktop will be a spur (radial) from the ring final circuit and will consist of only a single 2.5mm T+E cable so it needs as a maximum a 13A fused connection to avoid overloading the one cable (and potentially being a fire hazard). Depending on the appliance it feeds, you may be able to use a 5A or 3A fuse. I alway use the smallest fuse applicable to the appliance - it's down to safety.
I don't recall a "neon" being a requirement, but it's a useful indicator of power on.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on that point (!)

For the shower, yes it will need it's own cable from the consumer unit hence the need for the add on to the full consumer unit - good practice is now to fit 10mm T+E cable. 30mA RCD protection is a must, as is a double pole isolation switch (eg pull cord). Here is an example of a shower consumer unit - just happens to be on special offer (and no I don't work for them or have shares!!):
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Consumer_Units_Index/Builders_Supply_Units/index.html

The cooker should be on its own circuit back to the consumer unit also.
If it plugs into a socket on the wall as you say it doesn't sound very safe - does the plug get hot?

As for price, well materials probably £100-£150 ish.
Labour is difficult unless the actual installation is seen - hopefully someone will be along in a minute with a better idea on pricing than I have.

Hope that helps.

roger56

Looks like Andrew-b posted in parallel - sorry if I seem to have repeated answers.

nichere

pricing wise it is hard to say it depends if he is chassing walls out etc and sinking back boxes or fixing them directly onto the wall the sockets and back boxes that is.
there is no need for neons to be on the sockets fused spurs etc there only used as an indicator.
one question is this electrician part p registered?
why doesnt he get the parts from the wholesallers cheaper than screwfix trust me
some wholesallers have deals on distribution boards so ask him to have a look for you.
if you need any more help do ask (electrician) do make sure he is part p registered

roger56

Here is a link to the building regs Part P document in full - it's not a daunting as you may think:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000001253.html

Section 1:18 to 1:29 explains about notification of work and registration (and the work you list is notifiable). (Actually, the electrician does not have to be registered - paragraphs 1.21 to 1.23 explain better than I can).

You should also note, Part P is for England and Wales only

HugoSP

Andy

The only thing I would disagree with is the boiler connection.

A plug in the wall is fine. Such an arrangement puts the boiler outside of the regs. If this arrangement is in place make sure you've got the correct 3 amp fuse in the plug and it is inserted into a switched socket. This arrangement would afford the same protection as a fused connection unit. Just make sure the cable to the boiler is neatly clipped or preferably held in by trunking against the wall.

However if work is being done around it then go for the fused connection unit. It looks neater and you won't get some numpty unplugging the CH to put a vaccum cleaner into the socket.

travel_freak

Hi, thanks everyone for your helpful replies.

In reply:

Roger56
Thanks. I don't know how old the installation is. The consumer unit is one of the modern plastic types with flick switches for when something fuses but more than that I don't know. It just looks like whoever did the wiring before wasn't very tidy about it and according to the builder has wired things in in places where they shouldn't be.

Builder has given me a list of stuff to order from Screwfix - believe me I wouldn't have a clue otherwise! I don't know why he isn't using a wholesaler, he just said Screwfix are quite cheap.

Re shower - please can you tell me what the "T&E cable" is that you refer to? (So I can check this is on the list of what I need).

Thanks for the link to tlc-direct. I'll do a cost comparison tomorrow on the parts the builder has asked me to order to see if they're any cheaper from this company.

Cooker plug - to be honest, if the builder had not pulled the oven out of the unit I wouldn't have known where it plugged in. Basically, when the oven comes out, you see the wire going to the plug in a double socket near the floor behind the oven. You just can't get to it at all when the oven goes back. I don't know if it gets hot as I haven't used the oven yet.

Thanks for the links. I can't manage to download Part P for some reason - I'll try again tomorrow.

I don't know if this builder is Part P registered. I've had Part P on the brain for days now and feel like a complete dimwit for not checking this. For some reason when this guy was there looking so professional testing the sockets and circuits and pulling out the oven I just completely forgot to check this. I was just so amazed/impressed by what he was doing as some of the other builders I've had in just stuck their head in the meter cupboard, said your consumer unit needs replacing and didn't bother to look at anything else!

Nichere:
Thanks. The builder asked if I wanted the boxes to be sunk into wall and I opted for surface as I hoped this would be cheaper, if not aesthetically pleasing!

Now that I know that neon's aren't a necessity I'll check out prices for non-neon type. (No, I don't want it to look like a red light district!!)

I don't know why he isn't using a wholesaler - I thought it was strange that he's asked me to order the stuff myself but I don't mind as he's given me a very detailed list of what I need - with catalogue numbers etc.

As to chasing - he said he would need to remove some tiles and chase behind them to lay the wires which need to go up to the extractor fan for the isolation switch for that and I think for some of the others in the kitchen too. Apart from that it's a very small kitchen and both the gas and electricity meters and the consumer unit are all together in a cupboard in the corner of kitchen.

HugoSP
Thanks. I agree with you that if I have to have the other things done then it probably makes sense to have this done too. I can't remember now but I think the problem may have been that the wire from the boiler goes under the unit and into a socket behind a unit so it can't be seen. Also, from memory, I don't recall there being a plug on the end of it - I think it was wired into the socket in some way, so you couldn't "unplug" it if you wanted to (just as well as knowing me I'd do just what you said, plug in the hoover or the radio and then end up panicking that the boiler had packed up!).

Oh how I wish I knew more/felt more comfortable about electrics - they just scare me to death!

andrew-b

HugoSP wrote:

Andy
The only thing I would disagree with is the boiler connection.

A plug in the wall is fine. Such an arrangement puts the boiler outside of the regs. If this arrangement is in place make sure you've got the correct 3 amp fuse in the plug and it is inserted into a switched socket. This arrangement would afford the same protection as a fused connection unit. Just make sure the cable to the boiler is neatly clipped or preferably held in by trunking against the wall.

Sorry my mistake. Just checked up and our boiler instruction manual says "isolation should preferably be by a double pole switched fused spur box.." but it also agrees that connection via a fused 3pin plug and shuttered socket outlet is ok so long as no bath or shower is in the room. Although i can see how it's not strictly necessary, i still like the idea of having all the central heating electrics on their own circuit seperate from the ring mains.

andrew-b

T&E = twin and earth i.e. cable with 3 cores of wire in - 2 sheathed (brown live and blue neutral in the new colours - or red and black in old colours) and one unsheathed copper wire along the middle (earth). You sheath the earth yourself with some yellow/green earth sheathing at any electric points.

Andy