Father died, family falling out

churchrat

Hello

Firstly, let me say I am sorry for your loss.

I was in exactly this position at the start of this year, except that had not seen my father for years. He also had no money and lived alone in a HA flat.

I can tell you of my experience.

Do not pick up a death certificate, or advise anyone else in the family to do so. I was told that the person who registers the death is then a point of contact for the funeral arrangements ( I am not sure if this means they are also legaly responsable for them, but do not let yourself become involved in this).

Do not apply for the social fund. This only covers a small proportion of the HUGE funeral costs and leaves whoever claimed it liable for the rest of the bill.

Do not take out a credit plan with a funeral director.

As your father died in a hospital, they will be responsable for his funeral arrangements if nobody else takes on that role. Nobody will tell you this, and ( in my experience) you may be told that the family HAS to pay. You do not. Tell the office at the hospital, when they phone to tell you about the death cert that there is nobody willing or able to register the death or arrange/pay for the funeral. You may be told that the LA has to pay for this, they do not because he died in the hospital.

Your father will recieve what used to be called a paupers funeral. My father had this. It was exactly the same a a "paid for" funeral except that there was no choice of time(you fit with whatever slot is available) and no cars for family. Everything else is exactly the same. It can be a religous funeral if you wish and you can say an eulogy of have hymns. I think it has to be a cremation, unless there are reasons why the deceased did not want this.

The most improtant thig is do not accept responsibilty (or allow your mother to do so. )

I had the most help from a local funeral director, who I phoned intears because it seemed that I would have to pay for this dreadful mans funeral ( spending more time and money on him than he had ever spent on his family his entire life).

Finally, do not feel ahamed or upset that you cannot afford to pay for this. I was told that the avarage cost to the hospital of this type of funeral is about £650. The cheapest funeral I could find was £1200. I failed to see why there was such a big difference in prices when the funeral was exactly the same.


good luck with it all

churchrat

ps
if he has any money anywhere this would go to the hospital to fund the funeral, who would then find his next of kin to release any remanining money to them.

churchrat

Sorry, just read that he owns half a house. What I said about refusing to arrange the funeral still stands, but they can come after her for the cost from the house ( depends how the house was owned).

paddy's_mum

In your shoes, I would write to your mother and sister stating that there is a huge question mark hanging over them by virtue of the joint ownership of the house. (His council flat does not come into the equation at all). They can choose to ignore you, or laugh at your ignorance, or simply accuse you of making it all up but the facts of the matter are very easy to verify - a quick trip to your local library will furnish all the evidence they need that events are about to jump up and bite them.

Look - if the house is Jointly owned, then his half passes to her on his death, by virtue of her surviving him, and his will can have no effect whatever upon that process. How the property would be dealt with upon death was determined by how it was purchased all those years ago and (with rare exceptions) cannot be altered now.

If they owned it as tenants in common, then his share of the house passes to you and your sister via the will and it is perfectly possible that his share of it has to be realised (ie sold, whether or not your mother agrees) in order to meet his financial obligations which include his funeral costs, any outstanding debt and/or taxes and the legacy to his two daughters.

They can dig their heels in all they like but the law is the law and they cannot avoid it. A creditor, perhaps the funeral payment plan people, can and possibly will take over and then any chance of agreement, common sense, negotiation and patience is likely to fly out of the window. What commercial set-up do you know that takes pity on people when money is concerned?

It's a pity that entrenched bad feeling, taking sides and hostility is colouring the picture and I would be suggesting in my letter that it is in everyone's interests to put aside any quarrel and get this sorted out before any further personal hurt or financial damage is caused. They're surely not so stupid and full of hatred that they can't comprehend the notion of stubborness causing the cutting of their own throats, are they?

I'm sorry for your trouble and wish you good luck.

escortg3

Sorry for your loss

Be careful not making the arrangements and letting the hospital sort it, as in our area they do not even tell family when the funeral is, so you wouldnt be able to attend your fathers funeral. This i would be mortified at.

The funeral directors can do a funeral cheaper than the amount in your fathers plan. If you want to register the death then phone the hospital and ask to speak to the coroner so that you can get the certificate to register the death.

Go along to the all the funeral directors and get quotes. they do vary. The funeral director will ask for a deposit before the funeral which you father may have enough for this in his bank account.

They will then invoice you after the funeral for the balance.

Before you and your sister inherit anything from your father his debts will have to be paid first. The obvious debt will be the funeral.

I would be telling my mum and sister that if the funeral bill is not paid by either of them then as half of the house belonged to your father and was left to you and your sister the house will need to be sold and his half released to pay his debts. Then you and your sister will receive what is left. This will make your mother homeless. Perhaps if you are blunt with them, they may raise the money if they think mum wont have anywhere to live.

They may then worry and pay up.

paddy's_mum

escortg3 wrote: »

as half of the house belonged to your father ....the house will need to be sold and his half released to pay his debts

This ain't necessarily so. Please see paragraphs 2 and 3 of my post (a couple up from yours) for the two possible scenarios.

To reiterate (and dispel the urban myth) when a property is bought as Joint Tenants, each party owns the whole house. At the moment the property is bought, it's disposal upon the death of the first of them to die is decided and written into the deeds of ownership. The ownership of the whole property passes to the survivor who becomes the owner simply by having outlived the other Joint Tenant.

The only way that I know of for this to be voluntarily changed (other than by a court order in say divorce) is by later issuing a Deed severing the Joint Tenancy. This can only be done by agreement between the Joint Owners so therefore cannot possibly be done after the death of one of them in the same way that a will cannot be made after the will maker's death! This is why I say that if the property is held as Joint Tenants, Dad's will can have no effect since at the moment of death, the entire ownership passed to Mum and cannot now be undone.

If however, they owned the property as Tenants in Common, then his proportion of ownership (often 50% but not always) can be left via his will to whoever he decrees and in that scenario, it is correct that funeral costs, debts and taxes may have to be paid for out of his share of the house.

However, and this is a very important point, if they were still married, I suspect a court would order that the widow be provided for despite the wording of the will which is why the OP might be very wise indeed to decline to act.

It's a great pity that family feuds and constant loggerheads have allowed this situation to develop and in the OP's shoes, I'd be backing off big time rather than risk getting hurt (emotionally, financially and health wise) for no gain or gratitude whatever.

vax2002

It is possible to organise your own funeral for around £200
A local joiner can build a coffin, find someone with an estate car and book the crematorium and pay the fee.
To be honest there is not much else to it other than a firm organising those things and charging you a couple of thousand pounds for the privilege.

merlin68

If your on a low income, which you sound like you are. You will be entilted to the funeral grant. even people who get more than the family element of ctc are entilted to it.

RAS

minerva

The executor is responsible for identifying the assets of the estate and any debts, then using the assets to pay the funeral costs and pay off the debts. After that they distribute the estate in lines with the will.

You need to know whether the house was owned as a joint tenancy or as tenants in common. If the house is a joint tenancy, then mum now owns the whole house and dad's will is irrelevent as there is virtually nothing in the estate tio inherit. Mum can leave the house to whoever she wants. In the absence of any other assets she can also pay the funeral costs since they are still married.

If it is tenants in common, things get sticky as under the terms of the will, you will own a quarter, as does your sister, whilst your mother owns the other half. I suspect that your mother and sister will "gang up" to make things difficult. You are unlikely to get access to your inheritance and they will probably want mum to stay living there regardless of what you want.

You can find out how the house is owned by goign to the Land Registry web-site and paying something like £4 for a copy of the basic deeds.

Minerva69

Thank you so much for all your replies, they are all really helpful and it will take me a while to take it all in and read them. There have been further developments since I posted last night. My sister wouldn't talk to me on the phone today (I asked if I could ring her and she said not) so we have been communicating by text.

I texted her to say I couldn't deal with Dad's affairs on my own (I couldn't have because of my having to care for my husband, who has got worse since all this started) and I didn't want to be executor, so if she didn't want to help I would have to apply for a Form of Renunciation which would mean I didn't have to be the executor. If I had done that I think his assets would be used to pay his debts, so my Mum may have lost the house but I'm not sure what sort of tenancy they had.

My sister replied and asked me to give her the phone numbers of the funeral directors. She contacted the coroner and my Dad's GP, she has been to get the death certificate today and has arranged a meeting with the funeral director who my Dad had taken his plan out with, for tomorrow morning. She is going to register his death at the register office on Monday.

My sister asked me to ring the solicitor to say I didn't want to be the executor, so I did. The solicitor said that she could do it as she is one of my Dad's beneficiaries in his will. She intends to pass over all my Dad's financial affairs to the solicitor and let him sort it out, I am assuming she will pay the solicitor's bill for this.

She is staying at my Mum's this weekend and the funeral director is going there tomorrow to discuss the funeral arrangements. My sister texted me and asked me not to go, so now my sister and my Mum are arranging my Dad's funeral between them without wanting any input from me at all. My Dad wanted me to have his ashes but I guess that probably won't happen now.

Steel_2

Hi Minerva

So sorry to hear about your dad.

I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned it yet, but at the top of the Moneysaving in Marriages, Relationships and Families is a sticky thread about what to do when a partner/spouse dies. However, it does say on the first post of that thread that many of the tips are applicable even if it is not your partner or spouse so you may find a lot of helpful information there from others' experiences.

This is the link: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/344578