Father died, family falling out

Minerva69

My 87 year old Dad died yesterday, he had been ill recently but it still came as a surprise. My Mum is still alive but was living apart from my Dad after they separated last year, however they were still married.

I think my Dad put me down as next of kin as the hospital phoned to tell me the news. I have also been named as sole executor in his will. My Dad didn't have much money and was living in a housing association flat. He took out a pre-paid funeral plan but the premiums on that have not been paid as he only took it out a couple of months ago.

I have a sister who my Dad didn't really get on with, after the estrangement last year she took my Mum's side so Dad didn't really forgive her for that. When she got married last year she refused to invite him to her wedding, the whole family fell out about it and we didn't go to the wedding either.

I am a full-time unpaid carer for my disabled husband, we also have a young daughter. My husband has recently been in hospital himself and is still not well and receiving medical treatment.

There is not enough money in my Dad's bank account to cover the cost of the funeral he had arranged with the funeral plan, or the solicitors fees for dealing with his will. My sister was going to pay for the rest and the solicitors fees, as she has much more money than us.

I was expecting a phone call from the coroner today about my Dad, but I didn't get one. I haven't been able to find out who the coroner is or where they are. My Dad is in the hospital mortuary and his death has not been registered yet.

I spoke to my sister this evening and she started having a go at me because I haven't made any arrangements yet. I asked her to ring a funeral directors tomorrow, as I have to take my husband to hospital for his treatment so I can't. She wouldn't make the phone call as she says I am his next of kin, and she started complaining about having to pay the remainder of the funeral costs/solicitors, even though I have never asked her to pay these.

We had an argument about it and now I'm not sure what to do as my sister isn't talking to me again. I can't afford to pay for my Dad's funeral/solicitors, as neither me or my husband are working. We're not on means-tested benefits as my husband gets a small pension from his former employer, but we don't have enough to pay for a funeral (which is going to cost £3,800 according to Dad's funeral plan).

I don't want to be executor of his will, he never asked me if I would do it and I've got too much else to cope with at the moment. Am I legally his next of kin or is it my Mum as they were still married?

My Dad's death hasn't even been registered yet. I can't deal with this on my own and my sister obviously doesn't want anything to do with it. I can't go to a solicitor for advice as we can't afford one, and I have my husband and daughter to look after so can't go to appointments with people.

If the phone rings now I just feel like not answering it. It's all making my husband's health worse and it's not doing me any good either. Does anyone have any advice about if I have to be next of kin and executor, and will I be liable for any of my Dad's funeral expenses and other costs because his estate won't be enough to cover them? Thanks in advance.

britannia6

If there isn't enough money in the estate to cover the funeral, it is posisble to get a Funeral Payment from the Government. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Bereaved/DG_10018660 for more details. Citizens Advice would be able to provide more information about this.

It is possible to say that you don't want to be the Executor but if you intend to do this, it is important that you don't do anything in relation to the estate or hold yourself out to be the Executor. The Will may include details of a substitute Executor who'd be able to step in if you were unable to deal with things. Otherwise, one of the beneficiaries or a creditor would be able to do it.

Having said this, it is only 24 hours since your father died, things are still emotional for you all and decisions do not need to be made straight away. Spend a bit of time grieving before you make any rash decisions.

mountainofdebt

Firstly take some deep breaths.

Technically I think your mum is the next of kin - anyone can be next of kin for hospital purposes.

I also think that nothing can be really done until the coroner has issued at least a temporary death certificate. When you said your dad had a funeral plan was it where he technically arranged everything but hadn't paid anything towards it? If this is the case then perhaps it can be scaled back if your sister is moaning about the cost. Might also be worth finding out if there is any financial assistance available - don't councils contribute if there isn't enough money to pay for a funeral, although this will be the basic sort.

As for your sister, it could be that she is feeling guilty about the estrangement and now doesn't have a chance to put things right.

As for being executor why would there be solicitors fees ? Sounds though as if the estate will be a small one and probably the greatest hassle you'll have is clearing out the home - though if you're under that much stress perhaps a house clearing firm would be the way to go.

meritaten

Hun - legally, your mum is next of kin. if he doesnt have any money then its up to your mum to sort out the funeral expenses - she needs to contact the benefits office if there isnt any money to pay for it. she also needs to sort out the death certificate - although any of you can report that to the register office. its early days yet so I would suggest that you take a deep breath - and then sort out the priorities. first the death certificate, then contact the funeral directors and the benefits office. then take it from there.

Minerva69

britannia6 wrote: »

If there isn't enough money in the estate to cover the funeral, it is posisble to get a Funeral Payment from the Government. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Bereaved/DG_10018660 for more details. Citizens Advice would be able to provide more information about this.

It is possible to say that you don't want to be the Executor but if you intend to do this, it is important that you don't do anything in relation to the estate or hold yourself out to be the Executor. The Will may include details of a substitute Executor who'd be able to step in if you were unable to deal with things. Otherwise, one of the beneficiaries or a creditor would be able to do it.

Having said this, it is only 24 hours since your father died, things are still emotional for you all and decisions do not need to be made straight away. Spend a bit of time grieving before you make any rash decisions.

Thanks very much for the replies. I've checked and we can't claim from the social fund to cover funeral costs as we aren't on any of the means-tested benefits on the list. As my Mum is still alive and they weren't divorced, we wouldn't be eligible for a social fund payment anyway as technically it should probably be my Mum that deals with his affairs.

I keep reading that the executor is responsible for debts, so I took that to mean that I would have to pay any outstanding debts that my Dad's estate doesn't cover. I really can't afford to do this, which is one of the reasons why I was going to renounce being an executor. There is only 1 executor named in the will - me. If I don't do it then who will?

mountainofdebt wrote: »

When you said your dad had a funeral plan was it where he technically arranged everything but hadn't paid anything towards it? If this is the case then perhaps it can be scaled back if your sister is moaning about the cost. Might also be worth finding out if there is any financial assistance available - don't councils contribute if there isn't enough money to pay for a funeral, although this will be the basic sort.

As for your sister, it could be that she is feeling guilty about the estrangement and now doesn't have a chance to put things right.

As for being executor why would there be solicitors fees ? Sounds though as if the estate will be a small one and probably the greatest hassle you'll have is clearing out the home - though if you're under that much stress perhaps a house clearing firm would be the way to go.

My Dad took out a funeral plan with a local funeral directors a couple of months ago. He had already paid a deposit and signed the forms, and was going to pay off the balance by monthly instalments. All the details of the funeral, cremation etc, were arranged with them but there isn't enough in his bank account to pay off the rest of the plan.

My Dad's will is lodged with a solicitor near where he lived (we live about 20 miles away). I've never dealt with a death before and other people have advised me to let the solicitor deal with it all, as I don't know what I'm doing and I don't have the time. I thought we would have to pay the solicitor for sorting out the will at least, and my Dad's estate won't cover the cost of this.

There are only 2 beneficiaries in his will - myself and my sister. He didn't want my Mum to benefit because of the estrangement. Basically he went into hospital last year after a heart attack, and when he came out of hospital my Mum wouldn't let him go and live back at home. He would have needed care assistants and she wouldn't let them in the house. So with my help we found him a nursing home to move into at first, then he went into the housing association flat.

My Mum is still living in the house they shared, they owned it jointly so my Mum now owns half and my Dad wanted the other half shared between me and my sister.

meritaten wrote: »

Hun - legally, your mum is next of kin. if he doesnt have any money then its up to your mum to sort out the funeral expenses - she needs to contact the benefits office if there isnt any money to pay for it. she also needs to sort out the death certificate - although any of you can report that to the register office. its early days yet so I would suggest that you take a deep breath - and then sort out the priorities. first the death certificate, then contact the funeral directors and the benefits office. then take it from there.

Thanks for that but my Mum won't have anything to do with my Dad's affairs. She hadn't even spoken to him since January 2010 when she refused to let him back in the house when he came out of hospital then. My Mum is in her 70's and not in the best of health herself, so she will expect me to deal with it. My sister is on her side so she won't help me now either.

I haven't got a death certificate or any paperwork. All I know is the nurse at the hospital said the coroner was going to ring me today but they didn't.

dcems

Firstly, sorry for your loss.
Death is always difficult, and more so when a family already have complex issues.

It is way too much for you to be thinking about right now. Dont get in a state as its time for you to be grieving.

I think, given the estrangements and attitudes already shown by your sister and mother, you need to seperate yourself from them. They werent there for him in life, so would they be in his death? You know they arent, and that just leaves you to try your best to sort out your dads affairs.
You will need to see a solictor,especially given he has left you and your sister half of his jointly owned property.

Its alway the same when someone dies and leaves a will-my OH is still going through difficulties with his family

mountainofdebt

Minerva69 wrote: »

I keep reading that the executor is responsible for debts, so I took that to mean that I would have to pay any outstanding debts that my Dad's estate doesn't cover.

No an executor merely pays any outstanding debts from the estate - if there's no money in the estate then all the executor needs to do is to write to the creditors stating that the person has died (usually giving a copy of death cert and proof that there's no money in the estate - you don't physically pay it out of your money.

Minerva69 wrote: »

My Dad took out a funeral plan with a local funeral directors a couple of months ago. He had already paid a deposit and signed the forms, and was going to pay off the balance by monthly instalments. All the details of the funeral, cremation etc, were arranged with them but there isn't enough in his bank account to pay off the rest of the plan.

I think what you need to do is to let the dust settle a little and then, with your sister, go to the funeral directors and discuss the options.

Minerva69 wrote: »

My Dad's will is lodged with a solicitor near where he lived (we live about 20 miles away). I've never dealt with a death before and other people have advised me to let the solicitor deal with it all, as I don't know what I'm doing and I don't have the time. I thought we would have to pay the solicitor for sorting out the will at least, and my Dad's estate won't cover the cost of this.

I'm guessing here but I would have thought the solicitor would have been paid for drawing up the will - if he doesn't do anything else (ie he doesn't perform executor duties) then no other fees need to be incurred.

Minerva69 wrote: »

There are only 2 beneficiaries in his will - myself and my sister. He didn't want my Mum to benefit because of the estrangement. Basically he went into hospital last year after a heart attack, and when he came out of hospital my Mum wouldn't let him go and live back at home. He would have needed care assistants and she wouldn't let them in the house. So with my help we found him a nursing home to move into at first, then he went into the housing association flat.

My Mum is still living in the house they shared, they owned it jointly so my Mum now owns half and my Dad wanted the other half shared between me and my sister.

How is the house owned ? The reason I'm askingis that the house may be owned in such a way that it passes to your mum by the fact that she is the surviving owner; in which case I would almost argue that she at least has a moral obligiation to see that your dad is buried properly. If however the house is owned in such a way that she only owns 50% then some serious talking needs to be done as theoretically she could be forced to sell up so that you and your sister receive your inheritance - if you wanted to be complete mares about it.

Btw why didn't she want your dad back after his heart attack - was it her way of forcing the authorities to provide medical care?

Minerva69

mountainofdebt wrote: »

No an executor merely pays any outstanding debts from the estate - if there's no money in the estate then all the executor needs to do is to write to the creditors stating that the person has died (usually giving a copy of death cert and proof that there's no money in the estate - you don't physically pay it out of your money.

Thanks for that, I didn't really understand what it meant as I haven't dealt with anything like this before. If there isn't enough in his bank account will I have to sell his possessions to try and raise some? He didn't have much as he lived in a tiny flat, all his furniture etc was provided by a local charity when he moved in so it won't be worth anything as it was second hand when he got it.

mountainofdebt wrote: »

I think what you need to do is to let the dust settle a little and then, with your sister, go to the funeral directors and discuss the options.

After the phone call tonight I don't think she will be willing to do anything now, I might not hear from her again. When we all fell out about the wedding last year she didn't speak to me for months because I was sticking up for my Dad, she only really started talking to me again when she found out my husband was going into hospital earlier this year.

mountainofdebt wrote: »

I'm guessing here but I would have thought the solicitor would have been paid for drawing up the will - if he doesn't do anything else (ie he doesn't perform executor duties) then no other fees need to be incurred.

The solicitor did draw up his will, yes. I have a photocopy of it. Would I just need to go to the solicitors and get the original will then?

mountainofdebt wrote: »

How is the house owned ? The reason I'm askingis that the house may be owned in such a way that it passes to your mum by the fact that she is the surviving owner; in which case I would almost argue that she at least has a moral obligiation to see that your dad is buried properly. If however the house is owned in such a way that she only owns 50% then some serious talking needs to be done as theoretically she could be forced to sell up so that you and your sister receive your inheritance - if you wanted to be complete mares about it.

I don't know how the house is owned, all I know is that my Dad asked for a letter from the building society to confirm his name was on the deeds. The mortgage is paid off but the deeds are still held at the building society. My Mum has all their paperwork and I don't think she would let me have it. She hasn't really kept in touch with me much because I took my Dad's side over the wedding thing last year.

mountainofdebt wrote: »

Btw why didn't she want your dad back after his heart attack - was it her way of forcing the authorities to provide medical care?

No, it was the fact that she didn't want care assistants going into the house to help my Dad to get dressed, cook his meals etc! The house is in a bad state of repair and she was embarrassed about letting people in. She's always been funny about letting people into the house, when she's been ill herself she won't get the doctor out. They had been offered all sorts of help in the past but she wouldn't let anyone provide it.

My Mum and Dad didn't get on for a long time, they should have got divorced years ago when my sister and I left home. To avoid seeing my Dad she used to stay up all night while he was in bed and then go to sleep in the day, not getting up until 3pm. She did that for years (they had separate rooms). The care assistants would have wanted to go in the house to help my Dad during the day, so she wouldn't let them in and wouldn't let him go back home. She hasn't spoken to him since. I can't really see her wanting to help with his affairs now. Ironically my Dad had recently got a legal aid solicitor to deal with getting divorced but the proceedings hadn't been completed when he died.

Thanks for all your help everyone. Off to try and get some sleep now, have to take my husband to hospital for his treatment in the morning.

Savvy_Sue

Good advice so far, breathe, and take care of yourself and your family.

One point, have you written to the HA to give notice on his flat, and how quickly do you think you can clear his effects? Although do NOT do this if you do not wish to act as his executor! Just do nothing!

It is quite normal for it to take several days for the hospital to issue the paperwork which lets you get the death certificate, and without the death certificate you can't really arrange the funeral. If the coroner is involved, and there needs to be a post-mortem, that can hold it up even more.

If there's enough in the bank accounts to cover the funeral (any funeral, maybe not the one he planned!) then you can ask the Funeral Director to issue an invoice which you take to the bank, and then they pay that bill direct.

See if you can get the Which book about probate from the Library (if you don't want to buy a copy) because that's very readable and helpful.

britannia6

You are right - the Executor is responsible for paying the debts but only in their role as Executor. The debts are paid from the assets of the estate, which by the sound of things, may also include half of the house your mum is living in. If there are insufficient assets to pay the debts then there are certain debts that get paid in priority (i.e. the funeral account) and then the remainder get paid pro rata. It is the Executors job to do all of this. The Executor is not personally liable for the debts.

My advice would be to phone the solicitor who is holding the Will and have a chat with them. They won't hand the original Will to you without seeing a death certificate but they would be able to talk to you in general terms. They will be able to advise you on your specific circumstances and may have an idea as to how the house is owned. (Joint Tenants would mean it automatically passes to your mum, regardless of what the Will says and Tenants In Common means that your father's share can be given away in his Will i.e. to you and your sister). If your father made his Will after he split from your mum, he should have received this advice from the solicitor.

If the property is held as Tenants in Common you'd need a solicitor to sort this out for you, so it's best to make contact with them from the outset.

Above all, try not to worry about things (it's easy for me to say, I know), but until you actually know what the whole situation is, there really is no point in worrying about the "what ifs."

belfastgirl23

If your parents aren't divorced then your mother may well be entitled to both funeral and bereavement allowances which would help towards funeral costs. I know what you're saying about her not wanting anything to do with your dad but if she understood that you would not be entitled to claim this and would otehrwise have to foot the bill yourself then perhaps that might motivate her to agree? Here's the link for funeral allowance, bereavement is on the same page

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Bereaved/DG_10018660

There might even be a little left from the bereavement money that would compensate her for years of a difficult marriage?

This is payable when the couple aren't living together, I know someone who was upfront about this and it didn't make a difference.

And I'm sorry for your loss and all the hassle you're having in trying to deal with this.