Real life MMD: Should I stop my 10% charity payment?

Shakerboy

Humptydumpty wrote: »

If I were you I would continue your monthly payment to your Church. After all God gives you all of your money.

Surely he would deduct his 10% at source and what we all receive is our 90% net of God-tax

RSPCA, NSPCC, RNLI and other charities don't have this ability whereas the church does!

Do not go getting yourself into debt for non-essentials.

However, this has inspired me.

I have not yet read the "60+ ways to increase your income" article but wonder if setting up a church is on there. All I need is 30-40 followers on an average wage and I'll be extremely wealthy.:A

Shakerboy

This may be an old one but provides an alternative way to calculate the amount to give......

3 ministers were discussing how they divided the offering money. The first said, "We put it all into a blanket and through it all up into the air and what falls back into the blanket goes to God and what falls out of the blanket goes to the church."

The second said, "We do something similar. We put it all into a blanket and through it all up into the air and what falls back into the blanket goes to the Church and what falls out of the blanket goes to God."

The third then says, "Yes, that is like what we do. We put it all into a blanket and through it all up into the air and we pray 'Lord, what stays up there you can have, but what comes back down we keep for ourselves!'

portlandboy

I see two "dilemmas" here.
Financially, it's easy. If you can't afford it, don't do it. Overspending, be it by indeviduals or countries is what has got the world into such a mess. Give a little, spend a little and save a little.
The second dilemma is whether, as a divorced person, you truly believe in the teachings and ethos of the church...Love, honour...sickness, health...till death us do part.
And if you're wondering...I'm an athiest

Torry_Quine

portlandboy wrote: »

The second dilemma is whether, as a divorced person, you truly believe in the teachings and ethos of the church...Love, honour...sickness, health...till death us do part.
And if you're wondering...I'm an athiest

You are a little harsh here. In an ideal world yes there would be no divorce but this is far from an ideal world. We also have no idea what the reason for the divorce was, he could be entirely the innocent party for all we know.

Thrifty_mum

A few years back while still married to my now ex-husband the church we attended preached to us that God would not prosper us unless we gave 10% or our income to the church. My ex-Husband really took this on board and I felt pressurised to agree even though we couldn't afford to. He kept telling us that God would provide for us. The only thing we got was an ever growing overdraft. I was in effect borrowing money from the bank to give to the church.
I have searched the Scriputures and as far as I can see God does not expect us to give beyond our means. If we are already living outside our means in that we feel the need to have the latest car, gadget, foreign holidays etc. then we are not really honouring God as he tells us as christians not be concerned with things of this world and that true contentment comes from him.

There is no real dilemma for you. If you add up your outgoings at the end of the month and deduct these from your income and you have either a break even suituation or even a deficit you are in no position to donate anything. Is there perhaps something you could do without such as papers/magazines that you could then donate the money from these to the church.

hope this helps

sutee1

billbennett wrote: »

Of course you should. Harsh as it may sound, it's an unnecessary outgoing that, at this time, you can't afford to make. If you feel really guilty about cancelling it, make an appointment to talk it over with your pastor.

(And if he does make you feel guilty about it, find a cheaper religion )

Don't get glib regarding something you obviously know nothing about, Bill! There are various references to this in the Old and New Testaments but they suggest that the tithe is on the "increase" not on current income (in all forms). Income can be food, as in tomatoes, potatoes and flowers in the garden, as well as monetary.
"2 Cor 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or[SIZE=+1] under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." This clearly has to be some amount (not zero). It may be ten percent or more. Well, it may even be less, but give as the Holy Spirit directs your heart; NOT AS THE PASTOR DIRECTS YOU. This is the distinct difference between giving to God and giving to the church. [/SIZE]
I had this dilema when I was very hard up and had to pray about it and listen to where I felt the Holy Spirit led me.

leetabix

catnicex wrote: »

The church in the post is generally defined thus there could be differences in the translation and tradition.
However, from the Catholic Gospel, I think that this is the answer:
"(1) When [Jesus] looked up he saw some wealthy people putting their offerings into the treasury (2) and he noticed a poor widow putting in two small coins. (3) He said, "I tell you truly, this poor widow put in more than all the rest; (4) for those others have all made offerings from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has offered her whole livelihood."
(Luke 21:1-4)
I think it's self explanatory as an answer to the post.
Regards

I think this thread has the potential to turn into a religious debate instead of a money debate, in the same way that last week's thread turned from a money debate into a debate on attitudes towards overweight people.

Myself, I am an atheist, yet I would gladly die fighting for anybody's right to have a personal religion (as I strongly believe that people should be free to choose their own thoughts). However, when a religion is pushed onto people, then I feel that I'm allowed to at least express my opinion in the opposite direction as I would never wish to convert anyone into being an atheist, or bring up my own thoughts where not warranted. In this thread, I won't - that's for another thread, as that's out of context for this thread. Therefore, when people are making comments against the church (where it isn't asked for), please refrain. In the same vein, people using quotes out of the bible as the basis of an argument are drawing on flawed logic (in terms of the context of this thread) - in terms of evidence supporting an opinion, please avoid the religious element of the thread entirely. This thread was started as a 'money moral dilemma' and not a 'religious moral dilemma'.

My opinion on the matter (and this would be the same whichever body it was that the original poster was giving money to) - I would advise to stop payments for the present time, until your money situation improves as such that you then have the liquid assets to then be able to resume your donations to the church. Accompanying this action with a pre-emptive discussion with your church deacon/elder (I'm making an assumption on your denomination here, however if I'm incorrect please replace with the relevant position of religious authority) would enable you to explain the same, and hopefully they would understand (if they treated you in a negative manner, maybe that would be the basis for another thread on religious ethics, again I won't go there on the present thread).

In terms of money and charitable donation, if you can't afford to give money to charity, then ceasing the payments means you're in a financially stronger position by consolidating your present finances, which iteself means that you're more likely to have a strong financial situation going forward if you act as such with other financial decisions you make (i.e. working on a low risk approach with regards to spending, through saving more and spending less). This then means that you're more likely to be able to have the disposable income to then pay the church again at a point in the future, meaning that both parties are more likely to benefit from this course of action.

The only counter-point I imagine someone could bring up would be a religious-based one of having to give your money to the church as it could be implied as such in some passages in the bible. I am quite confident of being able to refute this notion totally in the context of a religious-based discussion of morals, however the counter-point (and my argument against it) would be invalid when taken in terms of the context of this thread (the same goes for everyone else posting on here).

I wish you the best with your situation, and really hope you get back on track with finances soon to be able to have the disposable income to donate to the church without being in a financially hardshipped position.

James

wildthing01

Topher_Bear wrote: »

First of all, ignore comments made by non-christians here. They don't understand the dilemna...after all would you ask a non-Christian if you should pray? or what a particular biblical passage would mean?

can i just start by saying that this comment is unhelpful and prejudiced - i think many non-christians could offer valuable insight here. having someone with a different experience, who's not too close to the problem, ask those 'naive' questions can help people to see things in a different light.

as for the dilemna, it depends entirely i think on the person's motivations for giving to their church in the first place. interestingly, it seems that even among the christians posting here, there is some difference of opinion as to what the motivation might be.

if you are tithing as an 'insurance policy' (as one christian poster put it), i.e. trusting that God will give you back, then surely you will in fact only be short-changing yourself if you stop. this seems to be how many people are interpreting the act of tithing.

if you are tithing as a discipline and a guard against the sin of greed, then you have to decide for yourself how likely you are to become greedy if you stop - would you get too used to having the extra 10% and keep putting off the time when you start paying again?

if you are giving because it feels morally like the right thing to do, and you are happy that the money goes to good causes/helping the needy etc, then you have to decide whether those other needy need it more than you (e.g. if the money is going to people who have no house at all, while you do...)

if you are giving simply because your doctrine tells you to and you're worried about what it will look like, or whether God will be cross with you, then you need to read your holy book a bit more closely, because as i understand it, God loves us all, even the sinners, no matter what, and he knows what's in your heart, and if you're a christian, then it almost doesn't matter what you do, because Jesus died on the cross to save us all.

leetabix

wildthing01 wrote: »

can i just start by saying that this comment is unhelpful and prejudiced - i think many non-christians could offer valuable insight here. having someone with a different experience, who're not too close to the problem, ask those 'naive' questions can help people to see things in a different light.

as for the dilemna, it depends entirely i think on the person's motivations for giving to their church in the first place. interestingly, it seems that even among the christians posting here, there is some difference of opinion as to what the motivation might be.

if you are tithing as an 'insurance policy' (as one christian poster put it), i.e. trusting that God will give you back, then surely you will in fact only be short-changing yourself if you stop. this seems to be how many people are interpreting the act of tithing.

if you are tithing as a discipline and a guard against the sin of greed, then you have to decide for yourself how likely you are to become greedy if you stop - would you get too used to having the extra 10% and keep putting off the time when you start paying again?

if you are giving because it feels morally like the right thing to do, and you are happy that the money goes to good causes/helping the needy etc, then you have to decide whether those other needy need it more than you (e.g. if the money is going to people who have no house at all, while you do...)

if you are giving simply because your doctrine tells you to and you're worried about what it will look like, or whether God will be cross with you, then you need to read your holy book a bit more closely, because as i understand it, God loves us all, even the sinners, no matter what, and he knows what's in your heart, and if you're a christian, then it almost doesn't matter what you do, because Jesus died on the cross to save us all.

Great post, and nice arguments in a religiously sensitive context too, much better than I could put it. Also maybe something interesting to add - 'non-christians' would also include Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Gnostics etc., and maybe the person who noted that might want to consider that as it would invalidate their subsequent diatrabe. For anyone interested, the reason for this would be that one of the 'five pillars' (core tenants) of Islam is a notion called 'Zakat' which is essentially a charitable donation to the mosque, therefore in fact placing a large subset of 'non-christians' in a perfect position to answer this dilemma from a religious perspective, however as I noted before (and as wildthing01 has brilliantly demonstrated), it's best to leave the religious context out of the debate and concentrate on the core dilemma and the reasoning for the resulting actions the original poster might wish to take.

bogwart

I am an atheist, so feel free to disregard my comment, but I would suggest this is entirely a matter for you. Tithing is routine in many divisions of Christianity, but surely this is a matter for you and your conscience?