Possible problem with cracks / survey issue - after purchase

loftus

Posting this here because not sure where it best fits - please move it if another board is more appropriate.

Befeore I go on I hold my hand up to being a bit of an idiot so if people could just give me straight advice without reminding me of this it would be appreciated :-)

Bought my house in July. It is a semi built in 1882. Survey mentioned cracks in external wall but said they were consistent with the age of the property and nothing to worry about. I had seen a few cracked bricks when looking around but the survey put my mind at rest and everything went through fine.
A couple of months after moving in my neighbour pointed out a crack roughly on the centre line between the two houses which runs from the roofline to the roof of my kitchen - which abuts the main part of the house ie the length of the upper floor. He said it had been there about a year and that he had been keeping an eye on it. He had also had a friend who is a surveyor look at it - from a distance - who said to monitor it.
My neighbour filled in part of the gap with filler. A couple of weeks ago he knocked to say he had been up by that part of the house looking at a leaking gutter and noticed that the part he had filled appeared to have opened up a bit. The crack looks pretty much the same to me and - again from a distance - it looks more like part of the filler has been eroded or shrunk - but obviously I am worried that I have bought a property that is subsiding.
The upstairs floor has a slight lean but this was there when I bought it, and there are a few hairline cracks in the plaster in places.
Now I don't expect my insurance company to be very forthcoming about a problem that was existing when I took out the policy. I did phone the cliams line just in case but so far they haven't got back to me.
My question is what to do next. Should I get another surveyor in for an independent view or should I go back to the company that did my survey - it was a homebuyers report - and tell them about my concerns. My worry with that is it is in their interests not to find anything wrong because there may be a case against them if it proves they missed a major fault initially.
Have been quietly worrying about this for a litle while and any advice would be very welcome.

maryjane01

If you want recourse on the survey you took out you should act sooner rather than later as they will say the cracks appeared after the survey was carried out.

However I would suggest to sit tight. It was only a homebuyers survey and they did mention 'cracks consistent with age' so they will have some way of getting around being responsible. DO NOT go to your insurance company yet. As soon as something about cracks is on the record you will have to declare it to any possible buyer if you want to sell your house, and even if you want to switch insurers in future you will have to declare it, which may mean you get stuck paying very high insurance rates as no insurer will want to touch it. Monitor it yourself. If you don't think the cracks are getting bigger and they cause no threat to the over all structure leave it and declare it to any potential future buyers as 'cracks cnsistent with age'. There is some test you can do when monitoring cracks which involves putting some tape over the crack or something and watch it for a period of months to see if the tape moves. I think it is something you can quite easily do yourself if you read up on it, before dragging in the professionals. Once you start mentioning 'monitoring cracks' to people you cause yourself problems so until you are 100% sure there is a problem keep it low key.

Somebody with more experience may provide better advice than this.

dunstonh

a homebuyers report would offer hardly any protection on this front. You have gone for the middle option (mortgage valuation, homebuyer report and structual survey). This option is there to point out basic things. You needed the structural report.

Doozergirl

I doubt you're subsiding. The house has been there that long that movement does and will occur. I would think also that 'filler' (which obvioulsly isn't the approriate material) would not only shrink as it dries but I think will probably deteriorate quite quickly outdoors.

If there was the smallest suggestion that the house was subsiding, your surveyor would have asked you to get a structural engineer to look at it. It costs him nothing to be careful and potentially a large insurance claim if he isn't! If you still have your report it might be worth a call to him for some reassurance. Even your neighbours surveyor friend says it is something to be 'monitored' - he can't be that worried!

I think you can at least have a chat with your insurance company without any fallout. If there is nothing wrong, there is nothing wrong! There's also no question on any sellers forms about whether you have had concerns about movement.

My mother-in-laws house is being electronically monitored over a year (it's nearly up now) and she's absolutely obsessed that the crack is growing larger by the day. Every quarter so far we've had a letter saying they've not noted any movement at all (the electronic monitors are apparantly very sensitive too!) Your neighbour might be obsessing in the same way!

annie123

Hi, I wouldn't worry about it. You are covered in several ways.

If your surveyor thought it was serious he would have asked for a structural report, even just to cover his own back.
Should the property currently be moving and your surveyor missed it you can claim costs for the underpinning from his firm.
I work in an area full of old houses 30% have been done and the rest will need doing at some point! All houses move old and new.

You have buildings insurance which covers such things. They will send down one of their own guys who may decide there is no problem or may decide to monitor it for up to a year.
The house cannot be sold during this time.

If its OK, end of story, if it's not, then your insurance company will make the arrangements and may decide to claim off your surveyor.
Either way you should not end up out of pocket.

The only thing as a seller you have to mention is, if the property has been underpinned, as the new owners will have to mention it to their insurance company.

You could monitor it yourself by glueing a small piece of thin glass accross the crack. It must be set dead center. If it splits its moving. This is how they used to monitor cracks.

If I were you I would call the surveyor and express my concerns, let the insurance company know, and leave it to them to sort out.

Your neighbours plastering may not be up to much, wrong type of plaster used etc!! could all be a big fuss over nothing. Good luck

loftus

I too would have hoped that if the surveyor had had any doubts he would have suggested further investigation. I realise I went for the middle option - on advice - but surely this would have pointed out possible major defects even if it did not investigate them there and then.
I think maybe calling the surveyors for reassurance is the way to go. The crack isnt wide and I guess it may be due to slight movement over the years and materials that are now over 100 years old. It runs virtually straight down following the mortar in parts and cutting across a couple of bricks.

zkeithz

My advice as a surveyor:

Firstly, find a Structural engineer to assess and if appropriate he/she will monitor it.

Only then will you be able to determine cause and liability.

Even though your survey was the basic home buyers report, the Surveyor, as a practicing professional owes you a duty of care and is under an obligation to point out any visible defects, although not necessarily reporting on them in detail.

I would suggest thay any competent building surveyor should at least make reference to such cracks in his/her report and covering himself by recommending you to undertake further investigation, even if it does appear patently obvious the crack is not serious.

loftus

Hi zkeithz.

Thanks for the informed opinion.

Would you advise I contact the original surveyors at the same time as getting a structural engineer to look at the possible problem?

I understand that the monitoring of the situation could take some time so I wonder if they could get "off the hook" if I leave it too long. I believe that the very least they should have done was suggest further investigation of the crack.

Thanks again.

zkeithz

Loftus,

I suspect that you may be worrying a little too much. My experience is that a cracking problem in house this old would have developed much further over this period of time, unless there have been other interventions such as changing ground conditions as a result of long periods of sustained dryness or flooding, especially on clay, or as a result of structural alterations to the property.

Nonetheless, I would have certainly made an observation in the house buyers guide.

By virtue of the fact your surveyor has made no reference at all, your insurance company may be in a position to cover the cost of structural investigation, particularly if attributable to subsidence/ground movement, as there is evidence ( accordingto your surveyor) there was no cracking - if you take my point. However, if caused by alterations/workmanship, then they probably won't.

For peace of mind I would use an independent Structural Engineer. I doubt whether your original survey is a qualified structural engineer, as any worth his salt would have at least noted the crack, if apparent.

If a progressive problem is detected, make a claim against the surveyors professional indemnity insurers, all surveyors should have this insurance, it is a requirement of all the professional institutions (RICS etc). You might also consider consulting a good property lawyer to assist.

The limitation of liability on the surveyor in such cases prevails for, I believe six years, do check this out it may have changed in recent years.

The explanation for re-appearance of the cracking after using filler could be explained by the differential movement between the filler and original masonry. Many fillers are cement based and have a tendency to fracture under expansion or contraction. Bearing in mind the mortar used in your property is probably lime based and has a greater proensity to expand and contract without fracturing.

Hope this assists

Regards

keith

mr.broderick

Doozergirl wrote:

I doubt you're subsiding. The house has been there that long that movement does and will occur. I would think also that 'filler' (which obvioulsly isn't the approriate material) would not only shrink as it dries but I think will probably deteriorate quite quickly outdoors.

If there was the smallest suggestion that the house was subsiding, your surveyor would have asked you to get a structural engineer to look at it. It costs him nothing to be careful and potentially a large insurance claim if he isn't! If you still have your report it might be worth a call to him for some reassurance. Even your neighbours surveyor friend says it is something to be 'monitored' - he can't be that worried!

I think you can at least have a chat with your insurance company without any fallout. If there is nothing wrong, there is nothing wrong! There's also no question on any sellers forms about whether you have had concerns about movement.

My mother-in-laws house is being electronically monitored over a year (it's nearly up now) and she's absolutely obsessed that the crack is growing larger by the day. Every quarter so far we've had a letter saying they've not noted any movement at all (the electronic monitors are apparantly very sensitive too!) Your neighbour might be obsessing in the same way!

You really are the master of cracks and the only shining light on this forum.
In laws having cracks electronically monitored...Absolute poetry..keep em coming doozergirl :A

loftus

I really hope I am worrying too much. Think I'll probably pay up and go down the structural engineer route for peace of mind.
Thanks everyone for your time and thoughts. Very much appreciated.