Debit card fraud using pin

Only_Visiting

bert&ernie wrote: »

I agree that the wording is hardly clear and consistent across the site. But thats what you get when you rely on Visa's marketing blurb rather than the terms of the bank that is offering you the service.

Aye, we're in agreement here.

The whole point is that the Visa marketing applies to the product sold by the bank, and, as such, binds the bank as well.

It's a civil case, 'balance of probabilities', they are the 'professionals', you are the consumer... Ferguson v British Gas, Bob's your uncle!

Only_Visiting

masonic wrote: »

I may have missed it, but I've never seen this 'selling point' advertised within the UK. Perhaps it works like this in some parts of Europe but not others?

As per my first post on this thread, it's lifted from visa.co.uk and obviously applies to the UK market. Maestro UK have the same selling point on their own website. Unfortunately, as a newbie, I can't post proper links.

masonic

Only_Visiting wrote: »

As per my first post on this thread, it's lifted from visa.co.uk and obviously applies to the UK market.

Not necessarily if that part of the site is simply being pulled from a central repository. It's common for companies to register several country-specific domains, but put the same generic information on each site. You'd have to look at the terms and conditions attached to your Visa Debit card to see what's what from a legal standpoint.

Only_Visiting

masonic wrote: »

Not necessarily if that part of the site is simply being pulled from a central repository. It's common for companies to register several country-specific domains, but put the same generic information on each site. You'd have to look at the terms and conditions attached to your Visa Debit card to see what's what from a legal standpoint.

You can 'select your country' at the top of the website, and the UK pages clearly state it. Again, I can see the value of playing 'devil's advocate', but I wouldn't want to be the solicitor defending a claim on such a basis (n.b. I am not a lawyer).

vax2002

A research student published a paper showing how to intercept the pin number and card data using a 50p transmitter and two pins fitted inside the chip and pin machine linked to a wireless laptop.
The banks failed to obtain an injunction on the publication of this university paper, it proved that banks new as long ago as 2007 that the system was floored when they opted for cheaper security, that they knew that the data can be intercepted along with the algorithmic key to decipher it and that the practice was in use already by fraudster gangs operating in nightclubs, petrol stations, shops + restaurants.
Google the Omar Choudary research papers and send it to the bank, not that they dont know already . YET STILL THEY LIE and blame the customer.

bert&ernie

masonic wrote: »

That depends on the definition of "authorised overdraft". Banks have tended to switch to terms like "agreed" or "arranged" overdraft to differentiate between the amount of money you have been informed about, which may or may not be the same as the limit they will authorise for transactions.

Worth pointing out also that according to Visa, for debit card transactions, the money is deducted from your balance immediately. I have never experienced this with any Visa Debit card I have ever owned.

Sorry, I seem to have reiterated exactly what you said.

As for deducting from the balance immediately, that is patently not the case. For non ATM transactions, Visa Debit cards use the Dual Message System protocol with the clearing file used for posting a day or two after the authorisation message.

Most issuers will adjust the available funds on an account upon authorising a transaction though.

masonic

Only_Visiting wrote: »

You can 'select your country' at the top of the website, and the UK pages clearly state it. Again, I can see the value of playing 'devil's advocate', but I wouldn't want to be the solicitor defending a claim on such a basis (n.b. I am not a lawyer).

Advertising material does not form a contract, so while you might be able to report Visa to the Advertising Standards Authority for potentially misleading advertising, you would have trouble getting any court to give precedence to a statement on a website over the terms in a contract. If the T&Cs say a bank can give you a discretionary overdraft, then I don't think you'll get very far trying to sue them for doing so.

Only_Visiting

masonic wrote: »

Advertising material does not form a contract, so while you might be able to report Visa to the Advertising Standards Authority for potentially misleading advertising, you would have trouble getting any court to give precedence to a statement on a website over the terms in a contract. If the T&Cs say a bank can give you a discretionary overdraft, then I don't think you'll get very far trying to sue them for doing so.

But the consumer doesn't have a contract with Visa, even if the marketing material is aimed at them.

As far as I understand contract law, an invitation to treat (such as advertising) cannot deliberately include terms that are materially different from the contract that ensues on its basis. I haven't read the entire text of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, but my impression is that they were designed specifically with this kind of misrepresentation in mind.

Again, I don't have expertise in the area- this is just my impression of the legal situation. I have been involved in a couple of claims which I handled pro se, but they weren't about the exact same thing.

Casa_125

bert&ernie wrote: »

You have already confirmed that the first two of the transactions were genuine, its going to de difficult to argue that a further four are not, especially if the bank are insisting that they were pin verified.

That your son didn't have an arranged overdraft is not really relevant - assuming its a full service account, then the terms allow the bank to let the account go overdrawn by honouring your payment requests. Likewise, they are not obliged to decline transactions based on what you think is a fraudulent pattern, especially as they insist the transactions were pin verified and the card was not lost or stolen.

I do have some sympathy though because you only have the banks word that the card was chip read and pin verified. In theory, there should be cryptographic evidence of this, but in practice there is no means for this to be independently verified.

It seems that where people have been successful in challenging the authenticity of chip & pin transactions they have somehow been able to prove that they couldn't have authorised the transaction. This looks extremely unlikely in your sons case.

Good luck, but I fear he may have to chalk this one down to experience.

Thank you for your advice, we will fight to the death nothing to lose! When you are certain you are not wrong it is difficult to chalk down to experience but totally take your points.

Casa_125

Only_Visiting wrote: »

I do check these boards every so often, but I'd never really felt the urge to register and contribute. However, there's a very common misconception here that needs to be corrected. In fact, I recently had Santander refund me a load of bogus charges "as a gesture of goodwill" to avoid legal action that'd expose their dodgy practices on this.



You are not the only person to think that the above is true. In fact, Santander think so, too.

However, and in spite of the fact that I don't doubt your good intentions, it is patently WRONG! Debit cards just don't work like that, or they'd be credit cards, overdraft cards or whatever...

I'd wager that the OP's son used a Santander Visa Debit card. Let's see what the Visa UK website says about it:



visa.co.uk/en/money_management/choose_how_to_pay.aspx


If Santander don't want to be bound by those terms, I hope they can explain how their behaviour does not amount to misselling.

Not sure whether you can reclaim the smaller transactions or not, OP, but I think you'll fine as regards the larger one...

At last some hope! Thank you for visiting for the first time, it is great that you have taken the time and we will digest all the information and continue with our fight. I will definitely put the outcome on here in however many months it takes. Feeling more optimistic than ever