Debit card fraud using pin

Mishomeister

meer53 wrote: »

When a card payment is processed, the banks systems can tell if the chip was read or the magnetic strip. If the chip was read then it can't be a counterfeit card. Counterfeit cards rely on the magnetic strip fpr processing.

Either he has "forgotten" what he spent, the bar staff have input the incorrect amount and he has then used his PIN to verifiy, or the transactions have been processed manually, using the old style paper vouchers which the customer has signed. There is always the possibility that someone has used his card and PIN without his knowledge, taking and then replacing the card. If they are PIN verified the OP will struggle to get them to treat it as fraud.

Well, how about using a cloned card with a correct PI, overlooked at the time the son was entering his pin for a genuine transaction on a genuine card?

Only_Visiting

I do check these boards every so often, but I'd never really felt the urge to register and contribute. However, there's a very common misconception here that needs to be corrected. In fact, I recently had Santander refund me a load of bogus charges "as a gesture of goodwill" to avoid legal action that'd expose their dodgy practices on this.

bert&ernie wrote: »

That your son didn't have an arranged overdraft is not really relevant - assuming its a full service account, then the terms allow the bank to let the account go overdrawn by honouring your payment requests.

You are not the only person to think that the above is true. In fact, Santander think so, too.

However, and in spite of the fact that I don't doubt your good intentions, it is patently WRONG! Debit cards just don't work like that, or they'd be credit cards, overdraft cards or whatever...

I'd wager that the OP's son used a Santander Visa Debit card. Let's see what the Visa UK website says about it:

Visa_Europe wrote:

"Debit cards come with most current accounts and are the main way we access our own money. When you use your card in a shop, online, over the phone, to withdraw cash or buy by mail order, what you spend is deducted from the balance in your account straight away.
That means it is easy to stay within your budget, as you can only spend the money in your account or authorised overdraft. It is also easy to check up on your spending by going through your monthly bank statement and comparing it to your receipts – and your spending targets."

visa.co.uk/en/money_management/choose_how_to_pay.aspx


If Santander don't want to be bound by those terms, I hope they can explain how their behaviour does not amount to misselling.

Not sure whether you can reclaim the smaller transactions or not, OP, but I think you'll fine as regards the larger one...

bert&ernie

Mishomeister wrote: »

Well, how about using a cloned card with a correct PI, overlooked at the time the son was entering his pin for a genuine transaction on a genuine card?

I very much doubt it. If criminals had a workable way of cloning chip cards they'd be filling their boots.

bert&ernie

Only_Visiting wrote: »

I do check these boards every so often, but I'd never really felt the urge to register and contribute. However, there's a very common misconception here that needs to be corrected. In fact, I recently had Santander refund me a load of bogus charges "as a gesture of goodwill" to avoid legal action that'd expose their dodgy practices on this.



You are not the only person to think that the above is true. In fact, Santander think so, too.

However, and in spite of the fact that I don't doubt your good intentions, it is patently WRONG! Debit cards just don't work like that, or they'd be credit cards, overdraft cards or whatever...

I'd wager that the OP's son used a Santander Visa Debit card. Let's see what the Visa UK website says about it:



visa.co.uk/en/money_management/choose_how_to_pay.aspx


If Santander don't want to be bound by those terms, I hope they can explain how their behaviour does not amount to misselling.

Not sure whether you can reclaim the smaller transactions or not, OP, but I think you'll fine as regards the larger one...

Hmmm

The section that you selected to quote doesn't explicitly state what you wanted to infer from it. Furthermore, if you looked around a little you might have found this:

If you have a pre-arranged overdraft, make sure you do not exceed it or your card could be refused. You could also end up paying penalty fees.

and

If you know you have a lot of extra expenditure coming up, make sure you have enough money in your account to cover it – the alternative is an expensive unauthorised overdraft or the embarrassment of declined transactions.

The legality and fairness of any fee is a separate matter, but the issuer is not obliged in any way to decline the transaction.

Only_Visiting

bert&ernie wrote: »

The section that you selected to quote doesn't explicitly state what you wanted to infer from it.

How does it not?

"It is easy to stay within your budget, as you can only spend the money in your account or authorised overdraft"

To me, this has nothing to do with the legality of any fee. It is unambiguous that the transaction will be REFUSED if it exceeds the balance/authorised overdraft, in fact this feature is being touted as a selling point! Maestro have similar wording on their website, and that's how debit cards work the world over.

The other bits you quoted are worded in a way that's less clear, but let's take this apart:

"If you have a pre-arranged overdraft, make sure you do not exceed it or your card could be refused. You could also end up paying penalty fees."

Obviously that doesn't apply if you don't happen to have a pre-arranged overdraft.

masonic

Mishomeister wrote: »

Well, how about using a cloned card with a correct PI, overlooked at the time the son was entering his pin for a genuine transaction on a genuine card?

The most likely scenario is that the genuine card was 'borrowed' for the fraudulent transactions and subsequently replaced. Even if you entertain the idea that someone at the bar had some means of defeating Chip & PIN, it seems the transactions all occurred on the same night and in the same place. It's hard to imagine how a cloned card complete with working chip could have been manufactured in that timeframe.

masonic

Only_Visiting wrote: »

"It is easy to stay within your budget, as you can only spend the money in your account or authorised overdraft"

To me, this has nothing to do with the legality of any fee. It is unambiguous that the transaction will be REFUSED if it exceeds the balance/authorised overdraft, in fact this feature is being touted as a selling point!

That depends on the definition of "authorised overdraft". Banks have tended to switch to terms like "agreed" or "arranged" overdraft to differentiate between the amount of money you have been informed about, which may or may not be the same as the limit they will authorise for transactions.

Worth pointing out also that according to Visa, for debit card transactions, the money is deducted from your balance immediately. I have never experienced this with any Visa Debit card I have ever owned.

Only_Visiting

masonic wrote: »

That depends on the definition of "authorised overdraft". Banks have tended to switch to terms like "agreed" or "arranged" overdraft to differentiate between the amount of money you have been informed about, which may or may not be the same as the limit they will authorise for transactions.

That's a good point but, again, the difference between 'arranged' and 'authorised' would render the whole premise of the selling point that's being advertised here rather moot. Can't see how it could possibly stand in court.

bert&ernie

Only_Visiting wrote: »

How does it not?

"It is easy to stay within your budget, as you can only spend the money in your account or authorised overdraft"

To me, this has nothing to do with the legality of any fee. It is unambiguous that the transaction will be REFUSED if it exceeds the balance/authorised overdraft, in fact this feature is being touted as a selling point! Maestro have similar wording on their website, and that's how debit cards work the world over.

The other bits you quoted are worded in a way that's less clear, but let's take this apart:

"If you have a pre-arranged overdraft, make sure you do not exceed it or your card could be refused. You could also end up paying penalty fees."

Obviously that doesn't apply if you don't happen to have a pre-arranged overdraft.

What is an an 'authorised overdraft'?

In Santander's terms, you may have an 'arranged' or 'unarranged' overdraft. Either way, it is Santander who determine if it is 'authorised'

The statement on the Visa website does not say that a transaction will be declined it it takes you beyond a pre-aranged overdraft limit.

I agree that the wording is hardly clear and consistent across the site. But thats what you get when you rely on Visa's marketing blurb rather than the terms of the bank that is offering you the service.

masonic

Only_Visiting wrote: »

That's a good point but, again, the difference between 'arranged' and 'authorised' would render the whole premise of the selling point that's being advertised here rather moot. Can't see how it could possibly stand in court.

I may have missed it, but I've never seen this 'selling point' advertised within the UK. Perhaps it works like this in some parts of Europe but not others?