Strikes to go ahead

kabayiri

If you want to avoid resentment the answer is simple.

Offer schemes to private sector workers on terms comparable to public sector deals. If we all have to fork out more in taxation to pay for this then so be it.

Of course, no government will do this because they have no commitment to tackling the problem.

3princes

Really2 wrote: »

But you would argue their payed hours are around 2 hours less per day than the average worker. (so their pay kind of unoficially includes overtime as it is high for the lower hours and paid leave they receive)

Also they have around 7.5 weeks more annual leave than other workers

So I make that although they do a lot of unpaid overtime.
Against a 9am -5:30 pm worker with 25 days paid leave a year they are actually doing around the same amount working hours a year(providing the 9am -5:30 does no over time.).

17H - 10H for the 2h for 5 days = 7 hours per week
7H x40 (working paid weeks for teachers) = 280H per year overtime

7.5 (paid holidays over others) X5 = 37.5 Days extra
37.5X8h (9-5:30 working hours) = 300H

280-300 = -20 (but I will call it even hours )

So their hours including overtime in general are not greater than persons who does 9-5pm, they just have shorter paid working days and more holiday.

Unpaid overtime yes, more hours would seem to be a no.
So the argument hinge on that they may be they have more time to do unpaid overtime compared to other workers.

Where on earth do you get your figures from? Most Teachers start at 8am some even earlier, do you think that as soon as the children have left the school gates then they can follow suit? When do they plan lessons, mark the children's work? which can be up to five different lessons per day x approx 35 children,can they do this whilst they are teaching? No! They're more than likely to take it home. Then there are such things as after school clubs, parents consultation evenings. I know many of the teachers at my school who work until very late at night. As for holidays do they really have the full amount that the children do, think about it,there are displays to prepare,lessons to plan,resources to be sourced then made,they genuinely do work many extra hours of which they don't get paid for,because during school hours they are doing what they do best, teaching!I challenge anyone who criticises Teachers to do a week in their shoes, you'll find out then that it isn't such a cushy job.

LydiaJ

Well, a lot of the discussion on this thread is about teachers. Gove is complaining he wants higher calibre teachers and outlining plans to pay golden hellos of varying amounts depending on the new teacher's class of degree and whether or not they can teach a shortage subject. If he's really worried about attracting the best people into teaching, trashing the pensions isn't a very effective way of doing it.

ETA That was in reply to the question asking what public sector jobs weren't attracting good applicants.

ILW

LydiaJ wrote: »

Well, a lot of the discussion on this thread is about teachers. Gove is complaining he wants higher calibre teachers and outlining plans to pay golden hellos of varying amounts depending on the new teacher's class of degree and whether or not they can teach a shortage subject. If he's really worried about attracting the best people into teaching, trashing the pensions isn't a very effective way of doing it.

ETA That was in reply to the question asking what public sector jobs weren't attracting good applicants.

So it appears the answer is higher pay for teachers in subjects where there is a shortage, and lower pay in subjects where there is oversupply. Rather than giving roughly equal packages to all. Would you agree with that?

tartanterra

tartanterra wrote: »

If you are so fed up, then leave. No one is making you stay there.

You say you have your "eye open for a job" at your partners workplace. I'm not surprised. He appears to be better renumerated than most of us in the private sector.
You will find that there are very few jobs like that.

Of course, you may find that you will be unable to find the kind of employment your partner enjoys, as your sense of your worth is not shared by employers:

"The Barclays Corporate survey suggested 57 per cent of businesses were either 'not at all interested' or 'not very interested' in employing public sector workers who had lost their jobs due to government cuts.
Businesses were said to be sceptical about the skills public servants possessed."

If you are serious about leaving for another job, then you will do it.
As they say, Those who can; do. Those who can't..............

Prudent wrote: »

I don't see why. The same employer already employs two other former teachers in the same capacity as my partner. It is not a skilled job. They have a basic reading test and arithmetic as an entry requirement. I have taught both to a higher standard.

Again. According to you, your partner does an unskilled job, isn't as stressed as you, is paid better than you and works less hours.

If you are so skilled and talented, then leave the public sector and earn what you believe you are worth. shouldn't be hard if you are as talented as you claim.

LydiaJ

ILW wrote: »

So it appears the answer is higher pay for teachers in subjects where there is a shortage, and lower pay in subjects where there is oversupply. Rather than giving roughly equal packages to all. Would you agree with that?

I don't know. I don't feel as though I'm worth more than teachers of non-shortage subjects, and I don't feel as though I should be paid more than them. But then I don't think I'm worth more or less than a public sector teacher either. That's why I don't like and don't agree with all this polarisation of everyone into public vs private sector as if it's all totally different and opposite. I work in a private school, but I regard myself as doing the same job and belonging to the same profession and being worth the same pay as teachers in state schools. Sure, there are a few differences (longer hours and Saturdays in term time, slightly longer holidays, smaller class sizes but more marking per student, that sort of thing). But when private sector workers on here go on about private sector pressure to perform and get results and work hard, I recognise that from my own work, but I truly don't believe that it's significantly different for my friends who teach in state schools - at least not in the majority of state schools anyway. They are restricted by more red tape than we are in private schools, but they don't work any less hard, and they aren't any less dedicated.

Anyway, I think relating money (whether it's salary or golden hello) to class of degree is a stupidly blunt instrument. It's important to be reasonably good at your subject, but what matters is that you understand the stuff you have to teach really thoroughly, and a bit beyond that, and how good you are at the stuff in the final year of a degree is not particularly relevant. Also, subject knowledge is not the only thing that matters by a very long chalk. There are plenty of teachers out there with 2:2s who have what it takes to engage a class and explain so they understand much better than other people who have 1sts. Then of course there are people with 1sts who are fantastic teachers and people with 2:2s who are useless at it. Gove should stop trying to attract "the right people" into teaching, and just try to attract "people" into teaching, and let schools have the freedom to pick the best ones to appoint to the jobs.

lostinrates

LydiaJ wrote: »

. That's why I don't like and don't agree with all this polarisation of everyone into public vs private sector as if it's all totally different and opposite. I work in a private school, but I regard myself as doing the same job and belonging to the same profession and being worth the same pay as teachers in state schools.

Maybe that's exactly the answer though. Maybe we should all be being made responsible for our own pensions (other than state ones). Being able to contribute more for greater top up or less, perhaps with less tax relief to encourage the trend for increasing savings. I think the problem here is not JUSt the polarisation from media and public but rather people holding them selves as different from each sector. Most people work with around average effort..public or private I';d assume, regardless of profession or employer. Perhaps we need to have more autonomy in our arrnagements, less complacency and reliance? and less opportunity for polarisation.

Really2

3princes wrote: »

Most Teachers start at 8am some even earlier,

What ours are their contracted hours? that is the point.
They do 17H unpaid overtime, I presume their contracted hours are close to schools opening hours. So coming in at 8 am and finishing at 5pm or after stacks up the overtime, also working in holidays.

I thought the point was fairly clear, I never said anything about when teachers start of finish, I was just showing how eas it can be to rack up overtime when thee contracted hours are less than many full time jobs and the holiday entitlement is higher.
In reality the contracted hours for teaching is a red herring, I think that mos except that in reality their real working day is more in line with all other full time jobs not 8:50pm until 3:30pm.

So I suggest read my point again, it has nothing to do with the work I think teachers do, it is more understaning the work they do and how easy it is to rack up that over and above their contracted hours.
The second point was that even working 8:30 am - 5PM would rack up a fair amount of overtime a week, so although doing overtime, that may not be more working hours than say someone in a 9-5:30 job!

Really2

To add, as people seem to second guess my stance.

I would say re-evaluate all public sector jobs, pay what the jobs evaluated worth is and move away from state funded pensions.

If we want a fair equal society we should have fair and equal access to the same things regardless of the employer.

LydiaJ

Really2 wrote: »

What ours are their contracted hours? that is the point.
They do 17H unpaid overtime, I presume their contracted hours are close to schools opening hours. So coming in at 8 am and finishing at 5pm or after stacks up the overtime, also working in holidays.

I thought the point was fairly clear, I never said anything about when teachers start of finish, I was just showing how eas it can be to rack up overtime when thee contracted hours are less than many full time jobs and the holiday entitlement is higher.
In reality the contracted hours for teaching is a red herring, I think that mos except that in reality their real working day is more in line with all other full time jobs not 8:50pm until 3:30pm.

So I suggest read my point again, it has nothing to do with the work I think teachers do, it is more understaning the work they do and how easy it is to rack up that over and above their contracted hours.
The second point was that even working 8:30 am - 5PM would rack up a fair amount of overtime a week, so although doing overtime, that may not be more working hours than say someone in a 9-5:30 job!

I've never met a full-time teacher who came anywhere near fitting everything into 8.30 to 5.00. If you'd said 8.30 to 5.00 with another 2-3hrs every evening, plus extra when it's reports and exams, then maybe.

My general impression is that the hours are very long in term time, but of course we do get longer holidays. I imagine if you averaged the hours over the whole year it would probably be similar to other "degree plus at least another year on top" level careers.

Certainly, when I warn my kids about a particularly heavy working week coming up I say something like: "I really won't be able to do anything in the evenings this week except work, and you'll have to play in another room and keep quiet. I know it's not much fun for you, but you know that's part of the deal being teacher's kids. Just remember that I don't have to send you to a playscheme for the school holidays like your friends whose parents have normal jobs, and put up with this for now."

It's like that for me, not all the time but some of the time, and I only do 0.4 FTE. For full-timers it's like that most of the time.