MSE News: Only one third of pupils understand the new tuition fees system

2sides2everystory

wozearly wrote: »

Err...right.

OK perhaps my Vietnam reference was a bit too early for your experience - basically I meant that history shows us that all is often not what it seems on the surface, especially when there was an obvious likelihood that something opposite to what government wanted the world or just their own citizens to believe was actually happening all along.

Okay, let me put it another way. What would the credit ratings agencies actually do with the info?

That is secondary. The CRAs are merely the government sponsored repositories for our personal data. The real question is who then might have access to it directly (your word from an earlier post?) or indirectly?

Experian and those who gather wider pieces of information for customer segmentation purposes are different, and are interested in more factors including salary, disposable income, etc.

Yes you are right - CRAs are very different to what most people think. Did you know that personal data can be manufactured (and be accurate)? Yes of course you did.

On the credit rating side, student loans are different to everything else as the payment is taken from the government via the tax system. Short of tax evasion, you have no realistic way of choosing to dodge the payment if you're eligible to pay, and its impossible to default on the loan.

You said it. Awful isn't it? Bearing in mind the interest rates could be changed on a whim of government affecting a huge proportion who have basically signed a blank cheque right up to the limit of whatever tax is set from time to time. It is almost like a leap of faith we are presented with here, isn't it? There is a not insignificant number among the working population who have an ingrained religious tendency to donate the same kind of sums this scheme demands to charity associated with their religion, and I don't mean those who play Euromillions each time there is a rollover. Their voluntary burden is laudable and it doesn't affect their ability to get a mortgage either. What is to be said about a 2015 graduate starting to pay an extra 9% tax? Not exactly laudable is it? Some Vikings have a better word for it - they'd probably say 'det er træls' especially since they educate their youth to age 23 or so completely for free.

In a nutshell, you're protected by the Data Protection Act. Sure, that might be revoked...and Experian might hire a mercenary army and storm Whitehall.

Now that IS a plainly naive or deliberately misleading contention. We all know (or should know) how corporate and government will already both abuses and fails to enforce that law. The Information Commissioner is a toothless beast.

Its all just a matter of how likely you believe these risks are.

As ever ...

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

melancholy, I take it you think I (wozlate perhaps:p) should have noticed and complained and got angry with a few others who failed to get their point across earlier in December? What is six months between friends?

Now is not the time to give up the fight. The next election has already been put out of your reach so your vote has been neatly separated from your upset by four more years ... how is your short-term memory

i think more people should have been upset in December - then the protests wouldn't have been students smashing things and would have been productive! it's so frustrating that students were portrayed as whining kids sucking the state dry..... if more parents had been involved, the impact would have been greater and i think ultimately we've missed the chance to stop this.

but mainly i wanted to say that HE isn't winning in this - you seem to blame them as much for the high fees as the government and they really don't like this system and were vocal against it. just remember that! you can also see how many unis have had or are planning no confidence votes against Mr Willetts (http://www.noconfidence.org.uk/ is a recent attempt to link up anger across the country).

i admire your fight, but i think in terms of government u turns, the NHS was won it and HE will be sacrificed as a result. i'm resigned to it....... i also don't think the loans are as bad as you do. in an ideal world it would stop people going to uni unless they were suited to it. if people continue making excessive claims about how the debt will stop people managing to live their lives, it will just put off poorer students, regardless of ability. that's what i want to avoid!

(and personally, i never forgave labour for the fees and i won't be forgetting this mess up quickly either. my memory for that will last a long time!)

gadgetmind

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I wonder whether any of your calculations take into account the very real possibility that the £21,000 threshold will rise quite substantially during this period?

I currently have it increasing with CPI.

I also cannot understand why you would assume that your daughter will never take any kind of break from her career; have you checked that her plans for her future are in line with yours?

She's the one driving this TBH and we certainly haven't pushed her towards medicine.We're working with her in a support and enabling mode rather than being in the driving seat.

The plan is to wait until all the details have emerged, wait until she starts to get feedback from unis, and then sit down with her and look at the various options. She's a bright bunny, and will probably take my initial models and run with them.

gadgetmind

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

You're ignoring the fact that the term "up front fees" has a very specific meaning in HE terms and that meaning is not the same as yours.

Yes, but that's because they are trying to deceive people.

Oldernotwiser

gadgetmind wrote: »

Yes, but that's because they are trying to deceive people.

No it isn't. It indicates the difference between the up front fees which were charged when tuition fees were introduced in 1998 and the variable fees and tuition fee loans that were introduced in 2003.

The one improvement in the system was that tuition fees didn't have to be paid up front.

Oldernotwiser

gadgetmind wrote: »

I currently have it increasing with CPI.

Fair enough, although the current threshold was raised by 50% in a single jump in 2005.



She's the one driving this TBH and we certainly haven't pushed her towards medicine.We're working with her in a support and enabling mode rather than being in the driving seat.

The plan is to wait until all the details have emerged, wait until she starts to get feedback from unis, and then sit down with her and look at the various options. She's a bright bunny, and will probably take my initial models and run with them.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I was referring to the fact that you don't seem to have taken into account the very likely possibility that she'll take career breaks if she has children and quite possibly work part time afterwards. This was without allowing for the less likely (and less happy!) possibilities of redundancy, illness or disability.

gadgetmind

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

You seem to have misunderstood me. I was referring to the fact that you don't seem to have taken into account the very likely possibility that she'll take career breaks if she has children and quite possibly work part time afterwards. This was without allowing for the less likely (and less happy!) possibilities of redundancy, illness or disability.

I have a career break in one scenario, but not (currently) any of the other scenarios.

It's hard to allow for every possibility, but I'm much happier having a "what if" spreadsheet in place rather than relying on a damp finger in the air and/or rumours on the internet.

Lokolo

gadgetmind wrote: »

I have a career break in one scenario, but not (currently) any of the other scenarios.

It's hard to allow for every possibility, but I'm much happier having a "what if" spreadsheet in place rather than relying on a damp finger in the air and/or rumours on the internet.

I know it's difficult to account for every situation but I think you should take it into consideration.

Another idea... although quite ambitious, if your daughter is going to study medicine then you could buy a student type house, rent it out to her friends, but do not charge your daughter.

Because of the course length it means you may be able to save your daughter some money and have some extra income for a good few years.

My friend who is studying medicine at UEA has done this (well her dad, who funnily enough, I am going to work with in my grad job).

gadgetmind

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

The one improvement in the system was that tuition fees didn't have to be paid up front.

Fine, have it your way.

But let's just say that my spreadsheet shows when debt will start to accumulate on her "balance sheet", and interest will start to pile on top of it, and it's at the start of year one.

I'm generally suspicious of loans that are bundled with products, particularly when the headline says "Pay nothing for xxx months" as I know the money isn't coming from some magic tree and will instead come from my wallet sooner or later.

Oldernotwiser

gadgetmind wrote: »

I have a career break in one scenario, but not (currently) any of the other scenarios.

It's hard to allow for every possibility, but I'm much happier having a "what if" spreadsheet in place rather than relying on a damp finger in the air and/or rumours on the internet.

I don't think that anybody here is advocating the latter approach. Much simpler to consider repayments as a graduate tax and far less off putting as well.