MSE News: Only one third of pupils understand the new tuition fees system

gadgetmind

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

However, I just don't think that anyone would tell a FTB that they are "paying up front" for their property by taking out a mortgage.

The vendor needs to be paid in full, up front, before you get title. Some of this payment comes from capital (deposit) and some from a loan (mortgage). As this is the fact of the matter, why try and dress it up as anything else?

I'm just surprised that you've put so much thought and effort into this process but have, in many ways, totally missed the point.

In my spreadsheet I have "loan drawdown". This is money taken from the agreed loan to be paid to the university and to be used from living expenses. This money has to be paid up front on an annual basis throughout the course. Just because the repayments don't start immediately does not mean that the payments haven't started because they have.

There is an investment phase (totally up-front for a house, and up-front annually for a degree) and there is a repayment phase. Conflating the two will just lead to confusion.

Trust me, if a company borrows a few million to buy a piece of equipment, their accountant knows exactly when the kit hits the books and exactly when the loan does.

wozearly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

And there were no US military in Laos and Cambodia - how long did that last, woz ? Maybe they woz just a bit early

Err...right.

Okay, let me put it another way. What would the credit ratings agencies actually do with the info?

As credit raters they're primarily interested in information on people's reliability when it comes to paying loans. Experian and those who gather wider pieces of information for customer segmentation purposes are different, and are interested in more factors including salary, disposable income, etc.

On the credit rating side, student loans are different to everything else as the payment is taken from the government via the tax system. Short of tax evasion, you have no realistic way of choosing to dodge the payment if you're eligible to pay, and its impossible to default on the loan.

So this doesn't tell the ratings agencies anything about your risk profile...hence the information is pretty low value to them (except for some older style loans).

The only area of value would be being able to calculate your salary and get hold of your name, address, etc. But as this is personal information, the SLC wouldn't be allowed to share this information without your own prior consent as there is absolutely no reason for the ratings agencies to need this info for the SLC to conduct its business.

In a nutshell, you're protected by the Data Protection Act. Sure, that might be revoked...and Experian might hire a mercenary army and storm Whitehall.

Its all just a matter of how likely you believe these risks are.

wozearly

gadgetmind wrote: »

I assumed the 30 years runs from graduation - is this correct?

Yes

gadgetmind wrote: »

Rather than fighting systems, I prefer to instead work to understand them and optimise my interactions with them.

In this case, the optimal interaction may clearly be to opt out as much as possible unless there are no (or low) penalties for early repayments...

gadgetmind

wozearly wrote: »

In this case, the optimal interaction may clearly be to opt out as much as possible unless there are no (or low) penalties for early repayments...

That's my currently thinking, but thanks for the confirmation. Currently, we're in apply for places, get those A levels, and wait for HMG to make a bloody decision mode.

melancholly

gadgetmind wrote: »

That's my currently thinking, but thanks for the confirmation. Currently, we're in apply for places, get those A levels, and wait for HMG to make a bloody decision mode.

well quite! i'm still shocked that the bill could be passed in parliament and then the details only be released 6 months later. i genuinely didn't realise that's how these decisions were made! not even the MPs voting knew what they were voting for?!!?

2sides2everystory

melancholy, I take it you think I (wozlate perhaps:p) should have noticed and complained and got angry with a few others who failed to get their point across earlier in December? What is six months between friends?

Now is not the time to give up the fight. The next election has already been put out of your reach so your vote has been neatly separated from your upset by four more years ... how is your short-term memory

The latest iteration of repayment terms is a sop for people who do not understand debt. It is in fact an unfair and particularly discriminatory tax on all who take the shilling which can be changed far too easily by future iterations of government, but can ALWAYS be changed by strength of public opinion.

Evidently it took me six months longer than you for whatever reason to cotton on to what a truly awful thing had been done by the government. As someone implied earlier, if by the time a student decides to apply to university they do not understand the scheme and its drivers then they are probably not university material.

Shepherding masses of lesser students into the scheme "for their own good" is not in anyone's best interests.

So lets forget the unnecessary shepherding and get on with fighting this ill-motivated ill-conceived probably illegitimate scheme.

Oldernotwiser

gadgetmind wrote: »

Yes, and by 43, she's very likely to have paid more back than she borrowed yet still have a six figure sum outstanding.



I assumed the 30 years runs from graduation - is this correct?

If so, and accepting the vagaries of my other assumptions, she will indeed have some debt wiped out in 2047. At this point, she will have repaid £175k against initial borrowing of £62k but the outstanding £69k will be wiped out. Saying she won't be paying it off "in full" is technically correct but avoids the sticking issue of her having repaid several times what she borrowed due to the very high rate of interest they have set.


Rather than fighting systems, I prefer to instead work to understand them and optimise my interactions with them.

I wonder whether any of your calculations take into account the very real possibility that the £21,000 threshold will rise quite substantially during this period?

I also cannot understand why you would assume that your daughter will never take any kind of break from her career; have you checked that her plans for her future are in line with yours?

Lokolo

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I wonder whether any of your calculations take into account the very real possibility that the £21,000 threshold will rise quite substantially during this period?

I also cannot understand why you would assume that your daughter will never take any kind of break from her career; have you checked that her plans for her future are in line with yours?

Yep, the women I know change their minds every 5 minutes! Ha.

Oldernotwiser

gadgetmind wrote: »

No, the up front payment is your deposit and your mortgage as this is what has to be transferred to the vendor to make the purchase.

You're ignoring the fact that the term "up front fees" has a very specific meaning in HE terms and that meaning is not the same as yours.

As an example from the directgov website,

"Loans to cover your tuition fees
You don’t have to pay tuition fees up front, you can get a Tuition Fee Loan to cover the full cost. Your Tuition Fee Loan is paid directly to your university or college. "

Oldernotwiser

Lokolo wrote: »

Yep, the women I know change their minds every 5 minutes! Ha.

And you were doing so well!:p