Public sector wellcome to the real world

CLAPTON

swanny65 wrote: »

Clapton

I think you need to be put in a box !!!

Southern Cross - who will be picking up the tab for a private sector !!!! up when it goes down the tubes few months or should we leave the old folk on the street to fend for themselves? I wonder how much the directors are paying themselves at this month, bleeding the company dry before putting it in administration.

Do you really want an American health service?

Housing is moving to the private sector but only because Housing Associations have stepped in and Government legislation forcing developers to build affordable housing. Agreed the Government has a few decent ideas regarding social housing eg moving people for large houses to smaller properties when they no longer need a large home, taking away social housing from high earners etc

No need for a Retirement Pension or Benefits in Clapton world as the private sector will provide insurance for everything. Lets go back to the 1930's and reopen the workhouses

ok my friend

lets compare Southern Cross with Staffordhire Hospital.. which would you prefer your grandmother was in?

Southeren Cross should go bankrupt, the freeholders take a massive haircut and reduced rents,
some-one else takes over with lower costs; no old people on the pavement; no costs to the state, happiness everywhere except for the owners of course... capitalism at it's best
Staffordshire hospital..everyone still employed, most promoted


Do I want an American health service ..no but a much better and cheaper one that is responsive not to doctors but to me the patient

goodness we seem to agree about housing

my point about pensions in the private sector, is that no-one ever complains about the cost of private sector pension that they of course fund

dunstonh

Why do a certain section of society hate anybody that works in the public sector ?

Why do some in the public sector think everyone hates them?

I dont think people hate public sector workers (apart from perhaps the local authority council workers who get paid far more than they should and its not personal. Its just their greed - they have no right to earn more than the prime minister).

Do you really want an American health service?

The Americans dont want ours! Whilst the concept of the NHS is brilliant. The quality of the US health system is far better than ours.... for those that get healthcare.

Lets go back to the 1930's and reopen the workhouses

Not a bad idea for the workshy sucking up benefits and having children just to boost benefits.

corbyboy

roysterer wrote: »

2 years ago I went from a 5% Contribution 1/60th Final Salary scheme to a 10% Contribution 1/60th Career Average Pension.
This was non negotiable take it or leave it. So I guess the proposals put forward today are not so bad after all.

These forums are full of bad feeling for the public sector and I really struggle to understand why.

If your pension was decimated by employer then that is a travesty and you should be taking that up with them. If you have had your pension contributions increased for a smaller return why does it make you feel better if somebody else has the same done to them?

We should ALL be fighting for our pensions, public and private sector. If you signed a contract with certain terms and conditions then they should be honoured no matter which sector you work in.

If your house is burgled does it make you feel better to hear that you neighbour got burgled too?

dunstonh

If your pensions was decimated by employer then that is a travesty and you should be taking that up with them. If you have had your pension taken from you why does it make you feel better if somebody else has theirs taken away?

Who is getting their pension taken away?

corbyboy

roysterer wrote: »

What is happening today regarding Public Sector Pensions and contributions is what has already happened in the Private Sector.
Final salary Pensions are now gone forever!!!!!!! as much as we all dislike it.

2 years ago I went from a 5% Contribution 1/60th Final Salary scheme to a 10% Contribution 1/60th Career Average Pension.
This was non negotiable take it or leave it. So I guess the proposals put forward today are not so bad after all.

The feeble argument that Public Sector workers sacraficed higher earning potential by working in the Public Sector for greater Pension benefit is complete Bulls*** . If that's the case then wellcome to the private sector for those of you who think you can command far higher salaries, I think you will get a nasty surprise?

My contribution has doubled for less benefit. I am not prepared to pay higher income tax to subsidise public sector pensions as well.

I can guarantee that you will not receive any support if you choose to strike from the vast majority of private sector workers and private sector Trade Unionist.

Give it another few years and Career average will be taken away from us all, only for Defined Contribution rip off Annuity type Pensions to be left on the table.

I guess we have all been shafted by incompetent past and present governments. I feel sorry for the young people coming out of University in 4 years time with £50 - £60,000 of debt, they have got no chance of getting any good pension provision. Did the Public Sector Unionist consider them?
Answer:- a big fat NO. The Public Sector Metropolitan Police were hell bent on dealing with them as we all witnessed.

dunstonh wrote: »

Who is getting their pension taken away?

Sorry, that's not what I meant to say. I meant the OP was having his pension reduced, not taken away completely. I will edit my post to make this clear.

roysterer

I do not hate Public Sector Employees.
If Final salary Pensions are not sustainable in the Private Sector how can they be sustainable in the Public Sector?
Who is maintaning the funding for Public Sector Pensions?

I do not like the term used "PUBLIC SERVANTS" are you advocating that those CHARLATANS in Whitehall are serving the Public. Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Osbourne and Co are carbon copies of each other who surround themselves with carbon copies of themselves. They are from the same Universities, doing the same courses and from the same background.
Most of the theiving scumbags in Whitehall have not done a decent hard days work between the lot of them.
The only way this country has got any chance of getting out of this mess is to re-introduce a manufacturing envioronment that can make things that can be exported to generate wealth for the nation. Many jobs were created in the Public Sector when Manufacturing Industry was destroyed in this country by Thatcher. The son of Thatcher (Blair) also done nothing to stimulate manufacturing in this country, so it has declined for the last 25 years. The Banking sensation was all this country needed according to the Whitehall Wan*kers (of all Parties) and look at what they have left us all with???????????

ILW

The UK manufacturing sector destroyed itself. Didnt need Thatcher to do it.

roysterer

ILW wrote: »

The UK manufacturing sector destroyed itself. Didnt need Thatcher to do it.

I was expecting this:-
British Leyland, and Red Robo the toolroom trade unionist who solely detroyed British Industry.
Derek Robinson was an idiot who played right into the hands of Thatcher, Michael Edwards got a Knighthood for services to Thatcher for his aiding and abetting.
If its not the above then its Arthur Scargill and the miners fault that caused this countries problems.
This country has some of the finest and most innovotive engineers in the world it is these people that will make the difference providing they are given the right support. We should be encouraging our young people to make a career in engineering but no this government wants to discourage them with burdening them with £10000 a year tuition fees.
We need Scientist, Chemist, Engineers, Mathmaticians these courses should be free to are young top talent,not Politics,economics,art, dance, and of course good old sociology that the likes of Cameron Clegg and Co choose to do.

jamesd

real1314 wrote: »

It seems an odd thing to complain that someone else made intelligent choices therefore they should have the benefits of their choice taken away.

It's happening in the private sector. There's no reason for the public sector to be any different.

jamesd wrote: »

Male 65: £103,000 female: £116,000
male 60: £120,000 female: £132,000

those levels are far above the average value of annuities purchased by private sector retirees.

real1314 wrote: »

private pension of what size?

£5,000 a year with 3% annual inflation increase and no spouse benefit.

real1314 wrote: »

or is it the £5k you resent, seriously? £5k is something you're going to argue about when someone made provision by choosing the right job?

I don't resent it, I'm just explaining how much the private sector equivalent costs and how few people in the private sector buy annuities that large.

The Association of British Insurers found that "23% of all annuities bought in 2006 had a fund value of less than £5,000, and 41% had a value of less than £10,000". To give a better idea of the range, here's the range for externally purchased pensions:

Funds less than £5,000 23%
Funds less than £10,000 41%
Funds less than £60,000 93%


That's only a partial picture, though, better to take a look at the chart on page 14, in part because externally bought pensions are generally larger pot sizes than normal.

Like public sector workers, a retiree in the private sector may have more than one pension income source so neither tells the full income story.

A £5,000 pension on top of the £7,000 that new state pensions are likely to pay amounts to £12,000 a year. The national minimum wage is £12,334.40 a year if working 40 hours a week for 52 weeks. So that £5,000 and the state pensions also being paid for is enough to get an employee on minimum wage up to almost 100% of their pre-retirement income level. Go higher and even more employees at the low earning side of things will end up with a higher income when retired than before retirement.

So if there's talk of a £5,000 pension income level, what I'd want to know is how much the employee was earning and whether they were working full time or not. If they were on minimum wage then they are getting a high pension, not a low one, since pensions are normally below 100% of working income.

real1314 wrote: »

so, get a job in the public sector. It's a simple choice, why don't you make it if it such a dazzlingly great set of pay and conditions?

The public sector pension system is such that it disfavours those of my age moving into the public sector. That adverse effect on mobility of labour, either into or out of the public sector, is one of the negatives of the current public sector system being so different from what private sector workers are getting. Ideally everyone would be on either final salary schemes with the same basis or money purchase schemes so it would be easy to move around between employer types.

real1314 wrote: »

maybe if private sector emplyees had taken the time to ensure that their pension contributions were properly invested, supported by management contributions, and had campaigned against the tory "contribution holidays" in the 80s and the labour "pension taxes" in the 90s, you might not be so badly off?

Those are irrelevant to me. I've never been in a job that offered a final salary, average salary or similar type of pension scheme. No final salary, no chance of an employer taking payment holidays.

real1314 wrote: »

if you don't bother fighting for your pension and see it eroded, why should i suffer the same fate - back to making intelligent decisions again?

I've no problem at all with you making intelligent decisions. Nor should you have a problem with governments and private sector tax payers doing the same when it comes to trying to get public sector pay and benefits closer to those in the private sector.

A public sector worker arguing in favour of no change is asking private sectors to pay for benefits well above those that the private sector gets. Nobody in the public sector should be surprised if there's not a lot of support for that position. Equality is a good thing. That includes in pay and benefits between public and private sectors, not just between genders.

taking_stock

roysterer wrote: »

Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Osbourne and Co are carbon copies of each other who surround themselves with carbon copies of themselves. They are from the same Universities, doing the same courses and from the same background.
Most of the theiving scumbags in Whitehall have not done a decent hard days work between the lot of them.

this is where the emotion becomes nonsense.
my experience is that ppl in whitehall work extremely long hours - the real question is whether they're making the right decisions. frankly, it's just silly to argue about which universities they went to or which courses they read.