Are the CSA rates fair?

jetta_wales

Furthest to my thread a while ago wondering wether or not to ask my ex for more money for the kids, I have now just had a phone call from the CSA confirming that they have assessed him at £66.40 per week which is about £287 per calendar month. I had only been asking him for £120 per month as some will remember and before that only £100 a month. I only asked for the extra £20 a month after we mutually decided to change it from him having them for 3 nights a week down to two nights a week because the rush to get them to school in Mondays from where he lives and for him to then get to work, meant waking them at half 6 and getting to breakfast club rather disheveled by 8, often after not getting enough sleep all weekend. It started to affect our eldest in school on Mondays and he was finding it hard those mornings too so now he has them only 2 nights instead.

So anyway the point of my post is I guess a bit of a crisis of confidence. He's agreed to pay me £20 extra each month acumulativly so last month he paid me £160 and next month it will be £180 and so on. I was happy to do it this way so it gives him some time to adjust and sort his p1ss poor finances out as he has debt in a few different places.

I'm pretty sure he is hoping that I won't ask him to go right up to the CSA figure though and I haven't said for sure either way I just said "until it gets closer to the CSA figure" or "till whatever figure we decide on" but now the CSA assessment is back, although he will still be paying me directly not through them, I guess now is the time when I am going to have to decide what amount we use. The CSA's figure or something lower?

I had always thought that the CSA asked for too much but didn't it drop quite a bit in 2003 when it changed to CSA2?

20% of his income - 2/7th's is only 14.29 percent of his net income and considering he only has them from tea time Friday till 4pm on Sunday I really don't think that is too much to expect from him. But £287 is still a lot of money, though also really small compared his total net wage per month.

Oh I don't know

One part of me thinks, !!!!!! he's gotten off really damn lightly for the last 4 years even through the times when we've really struggled and yet honestly he's had a huge amount coming in every month compared to us so I should be well within my right even morally to ask him for the full amount from now.

Then the other half of me thinks it's not fair to ask him for it from now it's not his fault I've taken less thus far, he needs time to adjust in order to pay more. He has got a lot of debt and it will make things hard for him if I ask him to build up to the full CSA figure so I should pick something a fair chunk lower.

Help me out guys I'm all in a muddle now.

EclipsedMind

Wow I wish my Ex was as considerate as you. The choice is really up to you and you should consider what it costs you to raise your children. It does get more expensive as the children get older so you could agree an amount for this year and he builds up to it monthly until and then it goes up next year when hopefully he will have paid down some debt. A mid point by the sound of it would be 200 pcm so maybe aim for that with the phased increase you mentioned and it goes up next year? That would save him £1100 over a one year time period to reduce his debt.

Personally I think we should have a system based on what it costs to raise a child and not based on a % of NRP income but I am a tad jaded as the money I pay in maintenace funds a second home abroad for my Ex >.<

EM

clearingout

Jetta - I think you are being very reasonable. Be careful that you don't make things difficult for yourself as your children get older. It would be good for your ex to have money to treat them and proposing a figure somewhere between what he used to pay and what he 'should' pay would seem more than fair to me.

Eclipsed - different children having different costs. Children who grow up in private school with ponies do not cost the same as those who live on sink estates with a mum from a family with a history of being on benefits all their lives. I am not suggesting we shouldn't value all children the same but expectations vary widely, as does ability to pay. I don't personally think it reasonable that an NRP earning over £100k a year gets to pay the same maintenance as one earning £15k a year. Nor do I think that the PWC should be the one forced to make up the difference when coming from a higher earning history and wanting to maintain that for their children. Separation and divorce inevitably mean a decline in standard of living for all concerned but there are ways of cushioning that for the sake of the children.

I appreciate it's frustrating, though, if you feel your PWC doesn't need the money and just appears to use it for him/herself.

cte1111

I think 20% of net income for 2 children is fair. It is a reasonable representation of what the absent parent would be spending if they were living with them. If you earned more then you would spend more on your kids, so think it is fair that they do too.

From your figures, I make your ex's net income to be £443 per week. That is a fair amount of money. If he can't manage his own money, then that is his look out. Maybe he should be pointed in the direction of some of the Old Style or Debt Free Wannabee boards for advice on how to live within his means.

lazer

Personally I don;t think its fair either,

If 2 parents have basically 50:50 access, why should one pay the other.
Say mother has kids 4 nights, father has kids 3 nights or vice versa, why shoud the the father pay the mother the CSA amount less 3/7ths.
Do they not both have the same costs in terms of raising the children, both need a house to keep them in, have the associated costs of this etc
The only costs possibly not shared are the clothing costs, which could quite easily be spilt 50:50 also.

mspa

I think so too, if its 50/50 access one parent will recieve maintenance plus child benefit and possibly child tax credits and the other parent recieves nothing and has to pay the other parent. As for clothes in our case when we have the children they come with only the clothes they are wearing (often unsuitable ones!) so we have to buy clothes, pjs etc for here, even when we took them away for a week she sent them with nothing.

FBaby

The CSA figure is what is considered faired based on net income. It is what a pwc can get if she shoes to go down that route. That doesn't mean that it is forceably fair on individual circumstances. Assuming you are happy with the quality of life your children are getting, try to work how much they cost a month, as fairly as can be -when considering share of rent/gaz/electricity/petrol etc...- and see what 50% of this. Assuming this is less than what csa says he should pay but more than £120 he was paying, you could suggest that amount?

jetta_wales

I agree it is unfair if it's 50/50 care but that is not the case with us he only has them for two nights a week.

If we're looking at how much the kids cost us per se then it's definitely a hell of a lot more than 20% of our income so in that respect I don't think expecting the same of him is unreasonable and less the nights he has them it would be just 14.29% of his net. He earns about £32k a year.

I do feel like I've considered his debts for too long now though and every month I'm asking for less I'm the one being frugal so he can pay off his debts. Thing is though, in this time he's only made his debts worse not better. He is now half heartedly making some effort with them but it really isn't amounting to much from what he's said. He's had a few months now to look at debt management and hasn't got anywhere yet, I think he's filled one form in on-line with the direct gov web site and then just says "oh they haven't sent me anything yet still" and forgets all about it.

Since we've split I could have had about £10k more from him than I actually have had (didn't ask for anything at all in the beginning). If he gets himself in a mess despite being let off for all that much (many PWC's take the full lot straight away) then really I don't think any amount of further least will make any difference to his situation either.

If I do say I'd like to get it up to the CSA figure ultimately then I don't think he'll be prepared for it even in 6 months time when it finally gets to that level but I'm just tired now of going soft on him just because of his debts, they're not my fault, they're not the kids faults and they'd definitely be £120 a month worse if I hadn't been asking for that much in child support. It seems like any money he thinks he can spare each month he then allocates to a hire purchase product of some sort. If he has to pay for anything extra any month then it goes on credit card without a second thought.

I guess I'm so used to mollycoddling him it still feels wrong to finally stop doing it.

gillypkk

in my situation CSA rates are not fair.

my youngest has many many allergies and i do not get any help towards the cost of his food etc... either from the NHS or through the CSA yet his milk cost almost 4 times what a normal pint of cows milk does.

none of this is taken into account. my ex has nothing to pay for. he lives in army quarters so by the time he gets his pay all his rent and food has been paid for. he has no outgoings except his phone. i on the other hand have gas, leccy, contents insurance, school uniforms and all the rest and i only get 20% of his wage. he does not see ths children at all.

if parents share the child equally then no one shouldnt pay the other unless there is a difference in income and the tax credits and child benefit should be shared too but there needs to be more thought about other than the basic how much does he/she earn. and why is it 15% for one child and 20% for 2? the 2nd child does not cost 1/3 of the cost of the 1st. its just ridiculous.

jetta_wales

gillypkk wrote: »

in my situation CSA rates are not fair.

my youngest has many many allergies and i do not get any help towards the cost of his food etc... either from the NHS or through the CSA yet his milk cost almost 4 times what a normal pint of cows milk does.

none of this is taken into account. my ex has nothing to pay for. he lives in army quarters so by the time he gets his pay all his rent and food has been paid for. he has no outgoings except his phone. i on the other hand have gas, leccy, contents insurance, school uniforms and all the rest and i only get 20% of his wage. he does not see ths children at all.

if parents share the child equally then no one shouldnt pay the other unless there is a difference in income and the tax credits and child benefit should be shared too but there needs to be more thought about other than the basic how much does he/she earn. and why is it 15% for one child and 20% for 2? the 2nd child does not cost 1/3 of the cost of the 1st. its just ridiculous.

Have you tried going for a variation based not only on the child's higher financial needs but also on the fact that his net wage is after all his living expenses have already been deducted for.

gillypkk

jetta_wales wrote: »

Have you tried going for a variation based not only on the child's higher financial needs but also on the fact that his net wage is after all his living expenses have already been deducted for.

how do i do that? he never informs them of a wage increase either. i have to call them up each april to tell them of his pay rise and then he ignores them till they go to the army and get his pay slips.

i did speak to the csa about it before but they said unless its a disability then they dont care.