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Public Sector Pensions - Are they really so bad?
Comments
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A bit more to digestAn independent review of pensions by former Labour minister Lord Hutton put the average at between £5,600 and £7,800 a year.
However, that figure takes into account everyone to whom a pension is being paid, regardless of whether they have spent 40 years working in the public sector or just a few months.
Someone who spends their entire working life in the public sector could expect to retire on a pension of two-thirds their final salary.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13772326
So the £5-£7K is a bit of a read herring if comparing a life in the public sector and a life in the private one.0 -
But the average private sector is £1700 which then stops all the benefits people were quoting the average private sector worker would be entitled to? (I think they are rellient on pension credit)
You have to allow an average private sector pension in the figures if you are quoting averages surely, otherwise it is designing a perfect storm as justificacion?
Does the average include non-public sector workers with no pension?'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher0 -
Does the average include non-public sector workers with no pension?
No idea,
But if you are assuming averages like in your figures it is fairly obvious you have to included a average pension also.
Likewise your figures include people drawing pensions if they have only been in a job for a month.
it as fair as you are going to get if you use the £7K as the average as that average is based on regardles of length of service.
You could do no pension vs 2/3 of final salary as the real portrayal of a lifetime in both if you like but I think that may look much worse?
I am not running down the public sector but your calculation seems to fit the bias you believe based on averages you only want to include.
It is obviously totally wrong to presume everyone on a similar paid job to those of the public sector are going to get benefits thrown at them.
The argument seems to based on perfect circumstance on one hand (private sector) and averages on the other (public sector). Not really that fair IMHO0 -
But what I am failing to see is what justifies it in the public sector, we cant use this as
"Well it stops them claiming benefits when they are older"
As it is fairly obvious it is vastly unfair on those working in the private sector in low paid jobs. (I presume the public sector would not like to pay extra so they get better pensions to avoid this)
There is no guarantee the poorer will fit the criteria in the future so it is not justifiable subsidising some in their working life just based on they deserve it as they work for the state.
If they want less divide between the public sector and private the justification of you possibly get it back if you are poor when you retire is not a good one IMHO.
I don't disagree with what I think you are saying.
The particular case we have been debating was the lower paid employee where in reality there is little to choose between the pay I would suggest.
This demographic doesn't typically go for pensions of any persuasion.
Historic benevolence in the public sector, where a number of these poorer paid jobs were domiciled, drove pension take up as part of the package (IMO and experience).
This was also true in a lot of private companies too where it was probably more "voluntary" take up.
But there are loads of smaller employers/employees where it hasn't figured until recently.
Maslows Theory (I think or one similar it has been a long time) suggests peoples basic needs have to be met first foofd/shelter/water befor ethey can move up the scale to provide up to the discretionary spend level.
The way we live today doesn't get a lot of people off that basic level."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
But you are using examples to fit, if they earn more in the private sector why is the OAP 2 worse off? (No house no money etc??)
Because in the private sector they are not "compelled" to opt in as part of the package. At least not until these reforms.
At the lower end if you have a choice you put for food on the table first or go down the pub and not worry maybe.
they don't have the spare resource to invest or the aspiration."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Because in the private sector they are not "compelled" to opt in as part of the package. At least not until these reforms.
At the lower end if you have a choice you put for food on the table first or go down the pub and not worry maybe.
they don't have the spare resource to invest or the aspiration.1.)OAP, own home, basic state pension, modest saving provision say £33000. You could replace modest bin mans pension for similar impact. State Pension around £140 week council tax c.100 per month) £25 week say.
Not entitled to any other benefit except the universal ones as for 2.
2.) OAP. State pensioned £140. No property/savings, social housing rent free, no council tax, various "care" benefits denied to 1.) add circa £100 to income.
That does not answer why two on the same wage one had 33K and a house the other has nothing?
Maybe I am missing something but the cicumstances seem to be comparing a jaffa cake and a trumpet?0 -
A bit more to digest
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13772326
So the £5-£7K is a bit of a read herring if comparing a life in the public sector and a life in the private one.
Not really because Lord Hutton is looking at a Macro Level and averages.
The high earners as Kenny alluded to will also cause drag on this average in £'s value.
The NHS pension for clinicians that I know of is definitely 50%.
Don't think anybody is suggesting their aren't big hitters that get the cream it is just not the norm.
IMO 5-7k is closer to the figure than the £20K+."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
That does not answer why two on the same wage one had 33K and a house the other has nothing?
Maybe I am missing something but the cicumstances seem to be comparing a jaffa cake and a trumpet?
Both Relatives,
One who saved and provided diligently.
One who p***ed it up proverbial.
Work out which one is which.
That is part of the issue in society generally, you provide and sort yourself you get hit time after time.
Those that choose to enjoy it (or can't get it in the first place) get the assisance anyway."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Both Relatives,
One who saved and provided diligently.
One who p***ed it up proverbial.
Work out which one is which.
That is part of the issue in society generally, you provide and sort yourself you get hit time after time.
Those that choose to enjoy it (or can't get it in the first place) get the assisance anyway.
Not sure how that portrays with public and private sector pensions to be honest?0 -
But the average private sector is £1700 which then stops all the benefits people were quoting the average private sector worker would be entitled to? (I think they are rellient on pension credit)
You have to allow an average private sector pension in the figures if you are quoting averages surely, otherwise it is designing a perfect storm as justificacion?
Their are two sides to the equation pension/benefit call it what you want to top up and then there is the non payment on the other. Net difference is what we are talking about.
Again the average will be skewed by the big hitters. There are many more with no provision."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0
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