Greece downgraded to CCC by S&P, Greek MPs plan their getaway!

relic

michaels wrote: »

Argentina defaulted and was very quickly enjoying a boom and higher living standards than before the default. With a weaker currency and the ability to ignore some of the European restrictions Greece could also see a period of rapid growth.

Also criticising the protestors ignores the impact on individuals compared to the country as a whole - suppose you had borrowed 200k to buy one of the limited number of taxi permits which will then earn you an income for life top pay off the loan and you can then sell the permit to provide a pension and then you are told that the issue of permits will no longer be restricted so effectively your 200k is lost - wouldn't you protest. Similarly, as here, it is the PAYE payers who will bear the brunt of tax increases as they can not manipulate their incomes or 'go offshore' which may not seem very fair to see those who have always dodged taxes getting away Scot free.

Comparing Argentina to Greece? Totally different figures, and totally different era in terms of financial stability.

I'm not ignoring the impact on individuals at all, i'm actually thinking of individuals outside of Greece. What they don't seem to realise is that it is people outside their country providing them with loans and who will be affected if they default.

I have read a lot of local Greek blogs, and local news, and they all seem to think that the problems are not their own, and that by defaulting they can just carry on as normal. This is not the case, and I don't believe that their own people quite know what they are getting themselves into.

kbrumann

The Euro-Zone overall (or on average) is doing pretty well. Debt across the Euro zone is lower than in the UK or the USA. So it is just a question of the Northerners (FR, NL, DE, FI) willingness to bail out the fringes (Greece, Portugal and Ireland). So far it has been working pretty well.

The Anglo-Saxon press (fearing the demise of the US Dollar as the global currency for reserves and trade) has been announcing the end of the Euro ever since its inception. When a Pound Sterling bought €1.40 or US$0.85 was worth a Euro, the Euro was named "Toilet Currency", soon to be flushed away. Today Sterling buy €1.13 and the Yanks have to give US$1.40 for one Euro. When reading the British and American press is seems the Euro's demise is even nearer.

Don't hold your breath!

Conrad

relic wrote: »

The Greek people are being ridiculous, protesting against cuts, saying that they should just default.. Don't think they quite realise what position they would be in after something like that.

Well they would overnight become a much cheaper and thus more attractive tourist destination, and claw back a lot of business lost to Turkey. They would have far cheaper exports also.

They face immense and crushing austerity with little chance of repaying the debt, so why not go tits up and start over. Sure many of thier Banks will go bust, but it matters not, as they are bust on paper now anyway. A fresh start puts an end to the rot in double quick time and it's then rebuilding time from there on.

ILW

What is this austerity they are facing. does it mean they may not get such big state handouts and pensions?

FTBFun

ILW wrote: »

What is this austerity they are facing. does it mean they may not get such big state handouts and pensions?

Looks like they may have to pay some tax, the poor dears.

Ximian

FTBFun wrote: »

Looks like they may have to pay some tax, the poor dears.

Odious Debt?

Thrugelmir

ILW wrote: »

What is this austerity they are facing. does it mean they may not get such big state handouts and pensions?

Default would mean no one would lend to them. Spain could follow. The UK isn't exactly in good health either.........

So the issues to be resolved are fundamental.

Thrugelmir

Conrad wrote: »

Well they would overnight become a much cheaper and thus more attractive tourist destination, and claw back a lot of business lost to Turkey.

Where's the money going to come from to upkeep property? The banks won't be lending.

ILW

Still cannot figure out what "austerity" means in this case.

tartanterra

"No-one can be helped against their will" - EU Commission President.

Says it all really.
This hasn't just happened. Greece has known this has been coming for a long time, but let's be honest, they simply don't want to change.
More EU money simply delays the default, and the crisis will continue.