Greece downgraded to CCC by S&P, Greek MPs plan their getaway!

ILW

globalds wrote: »

So if you worked for a company that paid you a great wage and offered an early pension scheme then it came to light after ten years that the company could not afford to keep it promise who would you say was at fault ?

The company or the employee ?

Greek individuals have been sold a lie and are bound to be upset when the rules change.

I would have to accept it, rioting would make no difference.

They must have known it was unsustainable and chose to turn a blind eye.

Joe_Bloggs

There is a significant proportion of the population of Greece who could choose to take their money and possessions and migrate to anywhere within the EU. What is left behind would be a failed state. I am sure that this dilemma exists in the day to day thoughts of those who have nothing more to lose or fear the present situation getting worse.

Why pay taxes if your government defaults on international loans ? Why not transfer your money to foreign European banks rather than keep it with domestic banks. An irredeemable circle of fear and uncertainty will lead to a tipping point.

J_B.

globalds

Generali wrote: »

Ultimately you either have to pay for yourself or pursuade someone else to pay for you. The welfare state is based on the idea that the minority of rich people who pay most of the taxes will be happy to continue paying for everyone else indefinitely. It appears that tax payers in Greece don't want to pay up any more and the majority don't like it.

You surprised me with that one Generali.

The highlighted sentence really is nothing like the truth.
Welfare could and will be paid by taxes or revenue from any number of sources collected for society and redistributed .

Corporation Tax.
Import Tax.
Export Tax.
Consumption Tax.
Taxes on resources dug out of the ground.
To name just a few.

None of these streams deprive the wealthy of their "pile" any more than it does any other less affluent person.

Thrugelmir

[QUOTE=ILW;44668822
They must have known it was unsustainable and chose to turn a blind eye.[/QUOTE]

Concensus view is that over borrowing has been an issue for Greece for over a decade. Just like the UK, politicians are afraid of telling the truth as it would make them unelectable. However as in the business world. In the end there's nowhere to hide and the truth has to be faced up to.

worldtraveller

Joe_Bloggs wrote: »

There is a significant proportion of the population of Greece who could choose to take their money and possessions and migrate to anywhere within the EU. What is left behind would be a failed state. I am sure that this dilemma exists in the day to day thoughts of those who have nothing more to lose or fear the present situation getting worse.

Why pay taxes if your government defaults on international loans ? Why not transfer your money to foreign European banks rather than keep it with domestic banks. An irredeemable circle of fear and uncertainty will lead to a tipping point.

J_B.

The fact is that many, if not the majority, have already taken their money (Euros) out of the banks in Greece and have deposited it elsewhere, as I've posted before. The failed state is basically already there and the fat lady has sung her last song. The tipping point has passed, but the EU continues to sweep the problem under the carpet by providing bailout after bailout. Default is inevitable at some point!

I reiterate that the EU are looking for a way out, with default, with as little collateral damage as is possible. The problem though, IMHO, is that the longer they take, the bigger the problem will be in the future.

Generali

There are apparently rumours doing the rounds stating that the Greeks @r$3d up the bailout money calculation that they needed so there's a EUR3,500,000,000 shortfall between what they have asked for and what they will need.

The bailout needs a bailout!!!

vivatifosi

Degenerate wrote: »

As the realisation dawns on the Northerners that in order to hold the Euro-zone together, the bail-outs to the fringes will need to become perpetual subsidies, I suspect that willingness will evaporate.

This is where I suspect there is a big disconnect. Governments are keen to keep the Eurozone together but I remain unconvinced that the average person on the street will want to pay, particularly if they see it as paying for something they don't have or qualify for (early pensions, home ownership, etc) .

Plus governments can be replaced. Merkel's using two different sets of language - one for the domestic market and another to address the EU - this only highlights the tightrope she is walking.

ILW

How does the Greek government justify taking money from taxpayers in countries that cannot retire until 65 to pay for their own citizens to retire at 55?

Graham_Devon

ILW wrote: »

How does the Greek government justify taking money from taxpayers in countries that cannot retire until 65 to pay for their own citizens to retire at 55?

It doesn't really need to justify it IMO.

Greece should never have been in the Euro. What's more, the people on the groun, the people actually retiring at 55, don't actually want the bailouts, as far as I can tell. Neither did they want the Euro, it appears. It's all politics and what was best for the Euro. Again, IMHO.

Greece has its problems, but they are only intensified each time they are leant more and more money they realistically won't be able to pay back.

Afterall, it makes absolutely no sense "lending" money to countries that have all but officially defaulted. No one can see a way out, but no one wants to admit defeat....not least Merkel etc.

Generali

globalds wrote: »

You surprised me with that one Generali.

The highlighted sentence really is nothing like the truth.
Welfare could and will be paid by taxes or revenue from any number of sources collected for society and redistributed .

Corporation Tax.
Import Tax.
Export Tax.
Consumption Tax.
Taxes on resources dug out of the ground.
To name just a few.

None of these streams deprive the wealthy of their "pile" any more than it does any other less affluent person.

The thing is, who pays those taxes? HMRC do a breakdown now and again of who pays tax. It is amazing how much the skew is towards the rich.

Take VAT for example. I was always taught that VAT is a regressive tax because the poor spend a higher proportion of their income. While that is true, the poor spend a lot on things like food which are zero rated.

Corporation tax is paid by owners of companies. The biggest owners of companies by value? Rich people via their pensions.