Greece downgraded to CCC by S&P, Greek MPs plan their getaway!

Wookster

Generali wrote: »

The Greeks are traditionally good with numbers so I suspect they'll work this out before too long.

Don't you mean good with +ve numbers and not s good with -ve numbers

System

If the Greek people are untaxable then their government is irresponsible if it incurs debt that it knows it has no ability to repay.
Even more irresponsible are the banks and foreign governments that have lent it money on the pretence that Greece is a modern, accountable, honest, stable democracy with a robust economy.

If they want to behave as a corrupt third world nation and just enjoy life in the sun, that's their choice. But I don't see why we should ever have got involved with them.

We should let them crash and be well rid of them. Let Portugal etc decide which camp they want to be in.
Ireland is a special case, for us, because of past ties and shared culture. We should bail them out if necessary on condition they ditch the Euro and rejoin the sterling area.

neverdespairgirl

OH says that Israel, when faced with massive tax evasion, decided to publish everyone's declared taxable income, so that you could look up your friends / brother-in-law / pain in the neck neighbour and see how much they earned.

The year after, declared incomes shot up (-:

vivatifosi

Generali wrote: »

Apparently the German popular argument goes along the lines of:

We work hard and retire at 67, the Greeks do bgger all apart from riot and strike and retire at 55 and they want us to bail them out. If they can afford all that they should bail us out!

Here is Angela Merkel articulating that argument in the English language Der Spigel:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,763294,00.html

I would imagine that there are foibles in a lot of the PIIGS that would make people proposing a bailout raise an eyebrow. Like this scheme in Spain for example:

http://www.abacoconnect.com/subsidised-holidays-spain-imserso

tomterm8

Generali wrote: »

Apparently the German popular argument goes along the lines of:

We work hard and retire at 67, the Greeks do bgger all apart from riot and strike and retire at 55 and they want us to bail them out. If they can afford all that they should bail us out!

Here is Angela Merkel articulating that argument in the English language Der Spigel:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,763294,00.html

I suspect the greek argument goes, hang on, we are paying 20% interest to German bondholders, and they expect us to repay the debt at the price of not being able to educate our children, in order to keep the international credit markets open to our debt, even though they are not open. FCUK 'em.

tartanterra

tomterm8 wrote: »

I suspect the greek argument goes, hang on, we are paying 20% interest to German bondholders, and they expect us to repay the debt at the price of not being able to educate our children, in order to keep the international credit markets open to our debt, even though they are not open. FCUK 'em.

The Greek government fiddled the books to get into the Euro. They have tried to borrow their way out of trouble, and are now heading to default on their loans.

The Greek people don't seem to want to help their own economy, by doing basics such as paying their rightful share of tax. They also strongly fight any changes which might bring some realism to public spending.

As you state, their reasoning may well be "they expect us to repay the debt at the price of not being able to educate our children", but their attitude appears to be:

"We just don't give a t*ss"

tomterm8

To be fair, almost no one really met the criteria to join the euro http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/single_currency/66945.stm . And anyone who invests in greek bonds knew the Greeks don't pay taxation before they did it. They have been in default almost 1 out of every 2 years since they gained independence. So it's not stunning, unprecedented news that they default.

Generali

tomterm8 wrote: »

I suspect the greek argument goes, hang on, we are paying 20% interest to German bondholders, and they expect us to repay the debt at the price of not being able to educate our children, in order to keep the international credit markets open to our debt, even though they are not open. FCUK 'em.

Probably. They'd be wrong though as they're not paying 20% on the debt, they're paying whatever the original coupon (interest) on the debt was. The holders of the debt have suffered a paper loss or an actual loss if they have sold.

The Greek taxpayer has had the benefit of the debt through receiving services for which they haven't yet paid. A good chunk of that will never be paid and plenty of that which isn't paid will be made good by French taxpayers as French banks are big holders of Greek debt and bailout is the order of the day.

The trouble is that I fear that the banking system is insolvent and it will drag Governments down with it if the bailouts continue.

Graham_Devon

worldtraveller wrote: »

Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the EU, said last night that the euro would emerge stronger from the crisis.

It will.

For the next few weeks.

ChiefGrasscutter

neverdespairgirl wrote: »

OH says that Israel, when faced with massive tax evasion, decided to publish everyone's declared taxable income, so that you could look up your friends / brother-in-law / pain in the neck neighbour and see how much they earned.

The year after, declared incomes shot up (-:

Still happens in Norway.
Each year what each individual earned and paid in tax is released as public information.

I believe in the age of the internet some sort of restrictions are now being placed on its availability, what with searchable editions becoming available online you can imagine it as a burglars charter for targetting the houses owned by 'the rich'. Previously you had to go to your local council/library whatever to flip through the printed data yourself.