Suspended from work, and I'm innocent.

SarEl

ILW wrote: »

It sounds as if they are just as likely to sack the manager at the meeting.

On what basis - he hasn't been suspended and as far as we know no allegations have been made against him?

SarEl

Booie wrote: »

I understand what your saying, and agree what can be misconstrued as 'sus' on the managers side, However, all the evidence is on cctv, which is in the managers posession, it will clearly show that we were gone literally 2 minutes, at most 3 minutes, It will show my son knocking and trying door, looking thru glass and seeing and hearing his boss on the other side, he only put the key in, as he knew his manager was in there. You have the right to ask for the CCTV - do it now and in writing before it is lost or taped over! However, whilst this may be of some help, it does not prove that he had no inetntion to commit theft. I hope you understand that I am not saying he did - it's just that because I am a lawyer (and employment lawyer!) I tend to think every angle an employer will use. And I could see this one coming. The CCTV shows he tried the door and knocked - but thieves might do that to ensure nobody is in, before entering - and the manager being there stopped him. Do you see what I mean - the employer only has to have this "reasonable belief" and require no evidence of anything.

Unfortunately he did not record phone conversations. That is a shame. You may as well write a statement about what you heard anyway - it may not help but it can't do any harm.

I have just been down to his work to return keys, as secretary told my son on phone this morning to return them and collect his wages, I called first and told them I was going, they had wages prepared with treasurer and his suspension letter from the secretary, which says.

With reference to my telephone conversation with you earlier today, I confirm that your employment with the club is suspended until the outcome of a disciplinary hearing with myself and the chairman at 10am on Friday 3rd June 2011. The hearing will be in respect of your conduct of Sunday 29th May 2001 which is regarded as a serious breach of trust placed in you by the Steward. This is unfortunate - they haven't stated it is gross misconduct but they are looming that way. However, you should write back - you want to know exactly what the allegation is and what the evidence is, and you will not be able to attend any disciplinary hearing until you have this because you are not in a position to defend yourself against unsepcified charges.

They should also have mentioned if dismissal was a possible outcome (which I think it may be) - in law they should have said this, but given the nature of the employer I doubt it would make a big difference on its own. Maybe if they screw up enough... We can live in hope.

At the Hearing, you have the opportunity to explain your actions and you have the right to be accompanied by a colleague or friend. Interesting - and error in law they didn't mean to make - they have extended his legal rights (colleague or trades union rep) to include a friend. I suggest you make use of this to get a witness into the hearing.

Can anyone tell me where we go from here, My son is happy to go back to work while looking for employment elsewhere, mainly due to fact he has done nothing wrong, and believes that by facing them, he is proving his innocence. He is (maybe was now) a 2nd assistant, who has been in training for well over 18months and is not being treated as such, he is expected to open up and close up when the 1st assistant is away, and handle monies and cashing up, even when the manager is not there.
Legally does he have a leg to stand on? as he really can't see a career opportunity now, as its not just their trust in him, but his trust in them.

We can't answer these other questions yet - we have to see what happens. He must insist on getting the CCTV footage, the actual allegations and the evidence - and enough time to prepare a defence. Everything you ask for must be done in writing and make sure you have evidence of it being recieved.

I do not wish to spread doom and gloom, but I do want you to be realistic - there is every chance that he is going to be dismissed, and your only chance of clearing his name will be a somewhat risky tribunal claim. I hope I am wrong, but I would prefer you to err on the side of expecting this outcome. He may feel he cannot go back after this but he has no real cause not to - an employer is allowed to investigate alleged wrongdoing.

You might want to submit a grievance about the managers conduct in addition - but again I am not sure that will help, as guilty people often submit grievances to muddy the water too. So it doesn't prove anything - just puts it on record.

williacg

ILW wrote: »

It sounds as if they are just as likely to sack the manager at the meeting.

How so? The manager has reported the fact that an employee returned and let himself into the work place after his shift had ended, and when asked the reason, he felt it did not tie up (as far as he was concerned). The situation with regards to his drunken rants are heresay, without evidence, as unfortunatly the phone calls were not recorded, and a separate matter.

Booie_2

SarEl wrote: »

We can't answer these other questions yet - we have to see what happens. He must insist on getting the CCTV footage, the actual allegations and the evidence - and enough time to prepare a defence. Everything you ask for must be done in writing and make sure you have evidence of it being recieved.

I do not wish to spread doom and gloom, but I do want you to be realistic - there is every chance that he is going to be dismissed, and your only chance of clearing his name will be a somewhat risky tribunal claim. I hope I am wrong, but I would prefer you to err on the side of expecting this outcome. He may feel he cannot go back after this but he has no real cause not to - an employer is allowed to investigate alleged wrongdoing.

You might want to submit a grievance about the managers conduct in addition - but again I am not sure that will help, as guilty people often submit grievances to muddy the water too. So it doesn't prove anything - just puts it on record.

Ok he'll write that letter, however, the suspension letter, giving to me by hand, not my son, by the treasurer, clearly states he has been suspended for conduct on sunday, as a breach of trust. If we start to ask for details pertaining to a defence, are we not giving them reasons to concoct yet another load of rubbish.
I have my lifelong friend, a personel manager and business owner who is well up on rights of the employee, as she has also gone through a unfair dismissal in her working career to go with him, would it be detrimental to my sons case if we waited till we discovered what the outcome is on friday. We could write asking that the cctv be held in evidence so a copy maybe obtained if we feel friday is not fairly handled.
Also my son never recieved a copy of his contract, so i guess it would be wise to ask for that too.
I have a feeling that my sons boss will contact him again, he is an incredibly emotionally man, who drinks, is it wise to answer the call, recording everything, or to just ignore it.

williacg

Booie wrote: »

Ok he'll write that letter, however, the suspension letter, giving to me by hand, not my son, by the treasurer, clearly states he has been suspended for conduct on sunday, as a breach of trust. If we start to ask for details pertaining to a defence, are we not giving them reasons to concoct yet another load of rubbish.
I have my lifelong friend, a personel manager and business owner who is well up on rights of the employee, as she has also gone through a unfair dismissal in her working career to go with him, would it be detrimental to my sons case if we waited till we discovered what the outcome is on friday. We could write asking that the cctv be held in evidence so a copy maybe obtained if we feel friday is not fairly handled.
Also my son never recieved a copy of his contract, so i guess it would be wise to ask for that too.
I have a feeling that my sons boss will contact him again, he is an incredibly emotionally man, who drinks, is it wise to answer the call, recording everything, or to just ignore it.

i personally would record everything i possibly could, and hope it helps his defence.

Good luck.

anamenottaken

Booie wrote: »

I have my lifelong friend, a personel manager and business owner who is well up on rights of the employee, as she has also gone through a unfair dismissal in her working career to go with him,

You will need the agreement of the company to your friend accompanying your son. (Expect only that they allow a work colleague or union representative to accompany at a disciplinary hearing.)

Added: I've just read earlier post by SarEl in response to yours and see that it appears they would allow your friend.

narabanekeater

you do have the right for a copy of the CCTV im sure they can charge you £10 and its a subject to access letter you need to write?(im sure someone more knowledable will be along to help shortly) Is this a WMC by any chance? Im just wondering if theres any stance with saying your boss should not have been drinking while on duty? Was there a sober 1st aider on the premises?

Booie_2

narabanekeater wrote: »

you do have the right for a copy of the CCTV im sure they can charge you £10 and its a subject to access letter you need to write?(im sure someone more knowledable will be along to help shortly) Is this a WMC by any chance? Im just wondering if theres any stance with saying your boss should not have been drinking while on duty? Was there a sober 1st aider on the premises?

WMC? I only know Windows Media Centre, and Wales Millenium centre, lol. so I think I can say no, as I dont know what this means. (i'm so bad with abbreviations,sorry)

Actually talking of 1st aider, a lady had heart attack and died a few months back in the bar, the manager was the only 1st aider there, and he was paraletic. But I dont believe he was working, altho that shouldn't have made a difference, She wouldn't have been able to have been saved tho apparently.

And no, there was no other sober first aiders there, everyone bar my son was as drunk as a bar cloth.

brian_723

It might be worth pointing out should your son of wanted to steal, that he could have easily done so while the manager was present and intoxicated .


I would not be taking this at all and i would be giving the manager a good kick in for his behaviour ,not saying this is hat your son should do ,but what i would be doing .

SarEl

Booie wrote: »

Ok he'll write that letter, however, the suspension letter, giving to me by hand, not my son, by the treasurer, clearly states he has been suspended for conduct on sunday, as a breach of trust. If we start to ask for details pertaining to a defence, are we not giving them reasons to concoct yet another load of rubbish. Yes you are. But if he goes along with this charade them he is throwing away evidence on his behalf because he is not objecting to it every step of the way. They have already concocted something - and you want him to go in unprepared and answer it? The more they concoct, the more likley they may be to dig a hole. And once it is in writing and evidenced - they can't change the evidence! he has no idea what "conduct on Sunday" means does he? How will he react if he is accused of swearing - or assulating the manager? There are no witnesses so the manager can say anything here. Is your son so accustomed to dealing with this sort of thing that he will keep his cool and give a measured and sensible account of himself. No? Didn't think so! You never go into a disciplinary without having prepared.


I have my lifelong friend, a personel manager and business owner who is well up on rights of the employee, as she has also gone through a unfair dismissal in her working career to go with him, Just be prepared - no matter what the letter says they may try to correct the error on Friday when they discover he is accompanied. By law a trades union rep or an work colleague is all he is entitled to.

would it be detrimental to my sons case if we waited till we discovered what the outcome is on friday. Yes. You contest everything every step of the way.

We could write asking that the cctv be held in evidence so a copy maybe obtained if we feel friday is not fairly handled. "Ermm, sorry, the CCTV isn't available it accidentally got taped over on Monday." You ask now - it's evidence.


Also my son never recieved a copy of his contract, so i guess it would be wise to ask for that too. And the disciplinary and grievance policy - they should have sent these already. Again, by asking for it you are getting evidence they didn't send it.

I have a feeling that my sons boss will contact him again, he is an incredibly emotionally man, who drinks, is it wise to answer the call, recording everything, or to just ignore it. Ok. Now I have to give you the formal answer (because I am a lawyer and must). I asked you before if you had recorded the converstaion. I cannot advise you to tape a conversation without the other persons knowledge and consent. Doing so would be ever so unlawful and may result in legal action against you (although it is very unlikely). As a lawyer I would never advise someone to do something unlawful to obtain evidence which, in any case, may not be accepted in court. So I trust that you are intelligent enough to work out what that answer means and if not, someone else here will translate for you!

You must fight every step of the way - demand your full legal rights, your time to prpeare, evidence - the lot. This is likley to be the only evidence that you will have. Look, I am sorry, but I am going to be blunt - your son stands a very good chance of being dismissed as a thief in the next few days and as things stand he has not a shred of evidence. The employer does not have to prove he is a thief. They do not have to prove he intended to steal. They only have to have a reasonable belief. And this story is "thin" - very thin. He didn't go with the others as he always does. He had his tips that he went back for all along. I really am sorry, because I know you must be hurting like mad, but would you believe a story like this if it was anyone else and you were not emotionally involved? Do you not think that there would be a little chink of thinking "well it does sound just a bit fishy"??? You are potentially up against a whole bunch of people in a tribunal who will think exactly this. And if you have nothing to show back to them, you are in trouble. Do you understand?