Court Summons from DVLA - Great!

Paradigm

Just thought I'd post this as a help to the OP http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?249629-DVLA-Failure-to-notify-new-keeper-fine-court-case-dropped/page2

Read the whole thread if you like but the page posted is the "guts" of it

Wig

I will try to write a detailed reply to this thread, but incase I don't get round to it, I'll just say most of what you need to know has already been said, it's up to you to read and get familiar with the relevant legislation and what it means in terms of your responsibilities under the law (which you HAVE complied with) and to prepare your defence and take your defence with you to court. You can't just turn up in court (like suggested on the CAG thread) and say "I posted it" and expect to win. You have to show a legal argument to the court.

But please note how annoying it is that the linked to CAG thread in post #14, the both the OP and a follow up poster stawbelly on 11/01/2010 failed to update the thread on what happened to them in court. How utterly infuriating! How can people who come to ask for help on the internet get reliable advice if no-one bothers to come back and confirm if the suggested defences actually worked for them? !!!!!!!

bordercars

dint want mine case escalating so i dived in and paid ( credit card) then stupidly found these threads. do i bite the bullet & learn a lesson or is it to late to cancel the card payment (paid 26/05)

Wig

bordercars wrote: »

dint want mine case escalating so i dived in and paid ( credit card) then stupidly found these threads. do i bite the bullet & learn a lesson or is it to late to cancel the card payment (paid 26/05)

If you did send off the required declaration to DVLA then you complied with the law. DVLA have to prove you did not send it (which is obviously impossible to do) if you are happy to go to court then try to cancel the payment through your card issuer. And you could say in court you paid under duress and out of ignorance of the law.

What was your "offence"?

We should say that so far AFAIK there is no case law to support this defence. There are cases where people have won in the mags court using the defence, but no reports of anyone losing in the mags and then winning in a higher court (which would then create case law).

Paradigm

Wig wrote: »

We should say that so far AFAIK there is no case law to support this defence. There are cases where people have won in the mags court using the defence, but no reports of anyone losing in the mags and then winning in a higher court (which would then create case law).

A small sippet from something I found some time ago.....

On March 30th I was put on trial by the DVLA for not declaring SORN. I won my case against the DVLA. The judge stated verbally “the DVLA has no statuary power to force any one to contact them if they did not chase up or call the DVLA to see if the DVLA had received their SORN or any other information. The judge stated its all well and good having small print telling people to phone up but “its not good enough” The interpretations act was also mentioned at my trial and the DVLA tried to sidetrack but the judge was not having any of it. Another person was also tried at Portsmouth County Court and he referred my case to the District Judge and his case was also dismissed.


I have been contacted, by 2 people (two) who have wone there case against the DVLA by refering my claim number to the Judge.

Claim No: 9BR0829

Court: Horsham county court

Date: 30 March 2010

Reason: No statutary power to require anyone to contact them if they do not receive a receipt."

Result: Win

Taken from http://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10714-DVLA-SORN-notification-system-is-a-shambles-legally-unenforceable-and-administ

Although this is a higher court than Mags I'm not sure if it sets case law?

Exemplar

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the support!

I have sent a letter do my DVLA office (to the person who sent it, and I got a certificate of posting).

In the letter I stated that I had sent the V5 off, and included the original scanned copy.

I also included the scan I took of the letter they sent in December and a copy of the V5 I sent with that letter!

I said that, whilst I understood their viewpoint, it would be perhaps be a fruitless, expensive exercise for us both (as I WOULD insist that the named person attend Court, which is an option on their letter).

So I am awaiting a response, or I go to Court and see...

Alex

Wig

In reply to Paradigm

I believe that would have been for a SORN supplementary charge which is treated as a civil debt and dealt with at county court not mag,. I believe the OP will be in the mags because his is going to be a "fine" not a "debt" different part of the law (VERA).

I am only guessing but I believe that the county court is the first court on the ladder for the SORN debts and thus does not create case law, however both the mags and county courts can be asked to refer to previous cases - which although do not set case law they do set a precedent which the court can take into account, the court is not bound to the follow the ruling, but they would need a good reason to overide and contradict the ruling.

There is another case at Clerkenwell County Court but I don't know the case number it was done by sickpup.
http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=2336360

Try to contact him to get the case number and if anyone does get the case number post it into this thread.
This helps to identify him
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/03/dvla_court/
Maybe we can identify the case by contacting Clerkenwell Court?
We need the case number of Mr James Collins at this court on the 26th Oct 2009

Paradigm

Wig wrote: »

In reply to Paradigm

I believe that would have been for a SORN supplementary charge which is treated as a civil debt and dealt with at county court not mag,. I believe the OP will be in the mags because his is going to be a "fine" not a "debt" different part of the law (VERA).

Good point but wouldn't the statement by the judge "No statutary power to require anyone to contact them if they do not receive a receipt." (or words to that effect) be useful in this OP's case??

I'm pretty sure that's all the DVLA will rely on if it gets to court, they have nothing else!

Wig

Paradigm wrote: »

Good point but wouldn't the statement by the judge "No statutary power to require anyone to contact them if they do not receive a receipt." (or words to that effect) be useful in this OP's case??

I'm pretty sure that's all the DVLA will rely on if it gets to court, they have nothing else!

Absolutely! It will be very useful for the OP to refer the court to these two known cases and the judge will in all likelyhood agree and throw the DVLA case out.

Paradigm

alcot33uk wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the support!

I have sent a letter do my DVLA office (to the person who sent it, and I got a certificate of posting).

In the letter I stated that I had sent the V5 off, and included the original scanned copy.

I also included the scan I took of the letter they sent in December and a copy of the V5 I sent with that letter!

I said that, whilst I understood their viewpoint, it would be perhaps be a fruitless, expensive exercise for us both (as I WOULD insist that the named person attend Court, which is an option on their letter).

So I am awaiting a response, or I go to Court and see...

Alex

Thanks for the update.

Basically your defence is that you posted the V5 as required by

The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002

“Change of keeper: registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper not a vehicle trader
22. (2) The registered keeper of the vehicle -
(a) if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and
(b) shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following -
(i) the name and address of the new keeper;
(ii) the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;
(iii) a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and
(iv) a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.”

This you did & therefore once posted the following applies...

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

You could also go to a solicitor & get a sworn affidavit that you did indeed post the V5 (was about a tenner when I last got one but could be a little more now) even better if you have a witness to the posting?

Wig or anyone else can/will improve or remove as needed but that's it basically.