isp removing noise protection pros and cons - is it worth it

GunJack

it really depends on how good your line is, and how it behaves. This is where seeing your line stats would help us to be more specific about what BE are suggesting and what the possible consequences would be. If your line is stable at a lower snrm, then that's fine. If it isn't, then you need a higher snrm to help stability, but at the cost of speed.

I would suggest that if you saw an increase of around 1 Meg on moving from a Max (up to 8 meg) service to an ADSL2+ service, you're on quite a long line, with a downstream attenuation of around 47dB )Max service) or 51dB (ADSL2+ service). Again, this is why we need to see the line stats to be able to advise properly...we're stabbing in the dark a bit

A.Penny.Saved

Changing the profile is what the Be support person is talking about. It is usually set at 6dB as standard but it can be lowered to 3dB depending upon the condition of your line and whether there is any noise/interference present. Lowering the profile does mean that your connection is more likely to drop and retrain but on good lines it can improve the connection speed slightly.

I am on Be Value myself and until just over a month ago was having major stability problems going back about a year which nothing fixed. Increasing the profile up to 12dB made no difference, it still dropped. I think they might of tried higher than that at one point without success.

Then about a month or so back everything went back to how it was before, totally stable. I have now had them lower the profile down to 3dB again, on a very long 4+KM line, which it was on before the problems began and it has been stable for more than 15 days.

Giving you 12 Mbit instead of 8 Mbit might not make a bit of difference if your phone line isn't able to use it. They just cap the maximum connection speed at those values but your router will only sync at the maximum that your phone line will allow. You might of been syncing at 7.9 Mbit and even after they upped the cap to 12 Mbit your router could still sync at 7.9 Mbit if that is all your phone line will allow. So it wouldn't matter if they "allowed" the full 24 Mbit if your phone line only supports 7.9 Mbit. It sounds good but doesn't necessarily benefit you!

Only by logging onto your router and checking your connection speed can you see what your actually getting and whether that 12 Mbit is making any difference.

The username is usually Administrator and the password is usually the serial number on the bottom of the router. When you type 192.168.1.254 into your browser a username/password window will pop up where you should enter the details. Go to broadband connection then DSL Connection and then there might be Details that can be clicked to show full connection details. On older routers the password is the same as the username. It depends upon which router your have, it might say on the bottom of the router what the model is.

I am using an older Speedtouch and not the more recent 585 router that Be now sends out so the router webpage might be slightly different. I have a 585, which they sent me while investigating the connection drops, but don't like it so don't use it.

Be There only use Speedtouch Thomson/Technicolor routers which are all by the same company.

A.Penny.Saved

Click Broadband connection on the left of the screen and more options should appear below it. DSL connection should then show. Click that and it should show basic connection details. That is when there is an option to show full details on my routers and it is accessed by clicking Details which is on the upper right hand side.

Here in the link is my routers page, as I said it's a much earlier model than the 585 which you have so could be slightly different to yours, there is no wireless on my router, which I have never used anyway. Mine allows the SN Margin to be manually adjusted using the DMT Tool so I can adjust my speed and line stability to whatever I want. Although I am on a 3dB profile my margin for downstream is manually set by me slightly higher to maintain stability. That ability was removed from the 585 and some earlier models with firmware updates after ISP's requested it from the manufacturer. That is the main reason why I dislike the 585. DMT works with it but in a very limited way.
http://www.zaslike.com/files/2ivpbp50ojthi8fv8tk.jpg

ARTHUR

A.Penny.Saved wrote: »

Click Broadband connection on the left of the screen and more options should appear below it. DSL connection should then show. Click that and it should show basic connection details. That is when there is an option to show full details on my routers and it is accessed by clicking Details which is on the upper right hand side.

Here in the link is my routers page, as I said it's a much earlier model than the 585 which you have so could be slightly different to yours, there is no wireless on my router, which I have never used anyway. Mine allows the SN Margin to be manually adjusted using the DMT Tool so I can adjust my speed and line stability to whatever I want. Although I am on a 3dB profile my margin for downstream is manually set by me slightly higher to maintain stability. That ability was removed from the 585 and some earlier models with firmware updates after ISP's requested it from the manufacturer. That is the main reason why I dislike the 585. DMT works with it but in a very limited way.
http://www.zaslike.com/files/2ivpbp50ojthi8fv8tk.jpg

Thanks for the link a penny saved - I hope there is nothing here that would affect my security, but here goes anyway
DSL Connection
Link Information
Uptime:3 days, 3:48:41DSL Type:G.992.5 annex ABandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:1,304 / 8,636Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]:0.00 / 0.00Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:12.0 / 18.5Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:22.5 / 40.0SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:5.5 / 5.0Vendor ID (Local/Remote):TMMB / BDCMLoss of Framing (Local/Remote):0 / 0Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):1 / 0Loss of Power (Local/Remote):0 / 0Loss of Link (Remote):0Error Seconds (Local/Remote):8 / 0FEC Errors (Up/Down):808 / 967,790CRC Errors (Up/Down):808 / 1,724HEC Errors (Up/Down):7,431 / 1,217

ARTHUR

forgot to mention the guy from BE There said B.T has my line graded at 13 mbs, and since BE use ADLS-2 then you could nearly double that speed
hope that all means something to someone
p.s - wow I have just been looking at the BE website and they have put their value package up to £17 a month, they will end up out of business at that rate (luckily I signed up before then)

GunJack

So, after reformatting to make it easier to read, your line stats look like this

Link Information
Uptime:3 days, 3:48:41
DSL Type:G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:1,304 / 8,636
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]:0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:22.5 / 40.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:5.5 / 5.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote)MMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote):0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):8 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down):808 / 967,790
CRC Errors (Up/Down):808 / 1,724
HEC Errors (Up/Down):7,431 / 1,217


from the top....

Your upstream sync is good

your downstream sync is low
using kitz's estimator (which is very accurate) 40dB attenuation on 2+ equals 38dB on Max, and so you could sync around 10meg@ 6dB snrm

the zeros in data transferred and the high FEC errors are probably a 2+ reporting error - this is common across many routers.

The fact that you have CRC errors implies you have interleaving on, so as I suggested they may try you on fastpath.


Before you go further with BE support, I'd ensure your internal setup is in good health. Follow the advice on these links to check your internal wiring is up to scratch, as with the stats you have my money is on something internal...

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

http://www.dslzoneuk.net/socket.php

pay particular attention to microfilters and extension wiring


Note:- The BT database for line speed potential is hopelessly wrong - e.g. it says I can get 3 meg, I actually get just over 6. ADSL2+ does not mean your speed will double. Kitz's estimator here

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php

is very accurate as mentioned above. Your downstream attenuation is 40dB on ADSL2+, which is the equivalent of 37-38dB on Max. Using this figure gives you a potential speed of 10Meg on ADSL2+, so a. BT est is well over the top, and b. there is no way you'll get double that due to the laws of physics.

kwikbreaks

GunJack wrote: »

sounds like they are going to move you from interleaved profile to fastpath...the "noise reduction" they mention sounds more like removing the interleaving to try and squeeze a bit more speed out of the line by reducing the data overheads. Also, they may reduce your profiled snrn down a bit (which increases the amount of noise on the broadband connection but not affecting the phone).

In my own experience on my old line which I tried both ways there isn't usually much difference in speed between interleaved and fast path. The fastpath error correction usually improves actual throughput and it's only gamers that want it off because interleave increases latency (ping).

IMO it is much more likely that they are offering to reduce the default noise margin. Default is typically 6dB but some lines will be ok on 3dB. To estimate the effect you'd need to graph the margin variations over a few days to see how low it goes. If the noise rises above what the modem/router can cope with it resyncs (almost certainly to a lower speed).

To do the graphing something like RouterStats is needed.

===

My interpretation of those stats is that turning interleave off (FEC errors can only br present with it on) may be OK because the uncorrected error count (CRCs) are reasonable for 3 days (initially I misread them).

As those are Speedtouch stats http://be.nfshost.com/ can be used to analyse them. After reformatting them correctly this is the result -

Expected download speed at your current sync rate: 918.72 KB per second (or 7350 kbit)

Expected upload speed at your current sync rate: 138.72 KB per second (or 1110 kbit)

Signal Noise Margin Down (5dB) is a little bit lower than average.

Signal Noise Margin Up (5.5dB) is slightly lower than average.

Whoooo! Your downstream sync speed is 106 percent of the average speed for your attenuation.

Problem: There are some FEC Up errors. FEC errors are *corrected* errors, so these are probably nothing to worry about. Speedtouch routers have a habit of misreporting FEC errors anyway.

GunJack

^^^ glad we're roughly in agreement

p.s. useful tool for speedtouches...never used them personally, but may be handy to keep in back pocket

kwikbreaks

I used to have a Speedtouch 585v6 which was an excellent router for squeezing the last drop of speed out of a line and that's when I came across the Be stats tool. I'm on cable now though.

On the interleave/fastpath issue I'd personally always stick with interleave on after trying it off for a short time - I had wondered if it would run faster - it didn't and I think that's because noise margins are calculated by the routers and certainly my 585 must have included interleave/fast in the calculation.

A.Penny.Saved

ARTHUR wrote: »

Thanks for the link a penny saved - I hope there is nothing here that would affect my security, but here goes anyway
DSL Connection
Link Information
Uptime:3 days, 3:48:41DSL Type:G.992.5 annex ABandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:1,304 / 8,636Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]:0.00 / 0.00Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:12.0 / 18.5Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:22.5 / 40.0SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:5.5 / 5.0Vendor ID (Local/Remote):TMMB / BDCMLoss of Framing (Local/Remote):0 / 0Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):1 / 0Loss of Power (Local/Remote):0 / 0Loss of Link (Remote):0Error Seconds (Local/Remote):8 / 0FEC Errors (Up/Down):808 / 967,790CRC Errors (Up/Down):808 / 1,724HEC Errors (Up/Down):7,431 / 1,217

No it wont affect security, it's only a jpeg picture which I thought was a bit big to post directly as an image in the thread.

If your on the 12 Mbit package now, this explains why there was little benefit to it because you were syncing very close to your current maximum on the 8 Mbit package so you would see very little improvement from the higher capped connection speed.

There is one loss of sync since your router was rebooted which means your stability isn't perfect unless you disconnected the phone cable leaving the router on.

That downstream SN margin is a bit low for a 6dB profile. It could be about 6.5dB after a resync. Running routerstatlite might be worth doing to monitor things. It's a bit buggy but it does the job.

The lower than expected sync speed as already mentioned could do with investigation. Extensions and wiring problems might be causing it. Missing filters could also affect things.