Was this car in the wrong?

thelawnet

DCodd wrote: »

I cycle to work a lot and mainly using a busy A road link to the M25. I have sympathy with your view. Personally when I turn right off a main road I sit on the left hand side of the lane if it is a filter lane, as it allows other vehicles who are turning right to pass me on the right hand side.

Eh? Why would they need to pass you, you are turning right, they are turning right, there is no cause for them to pass you, you take it in turns, you got there first, you go first.

While I don't cycle in the gutter, I do cycle as close to the left kerb as is reasonabley safe to do so to allow other vehicles to pass me safely.

There's no blanket right or wrong on this. If I'm riding on a quiet country road I will ride in the middle of the lane, otoh, on a road like this one:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=woking&aq=&sll=51.35301,-0.537043&sspn=0.009193,0.026157&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Woking,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.280709,-0.573692&spn=0.07323,0.209255&z=13&layer=c&cbll=51.280503,-0.573525&panoid=58_0fceZdmhrn-rMXJ3F7g&cbp=12,169.07,,0,18.75

where it's 50mph, and cars do more, the lanes are wide enough for cars to pass you without hitting oncoming traffic, so I get over as far as possible. It's not particularly pleasant of course, and you don't necessarily fancy HGVs passing you with traffic coming the other way (in this case it may be best to make eye contact with the HGV and move out a little if there is traffic coming towards you), which is why it's best to avoid busy A roads if possible.

OTOH, on a road like this:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=guildford&aq=&sll=51.280495,-0.573521&sspn=0.071297,0.209255&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Guildford,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.245531,-0.571718&spn=0.035461,0.104628&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.24545,-0.571697&panoid=kKE7sqq1G_XTe2QKrlEKBw&cbp=12,333.94,,0,14.69

I will ride in the middle of the lane, there's a roundabout ahead, stop-start traffic, and no point whatsoever in cars overtaking you.

Generally speaking on 30mph roads I prefer to be in the middle of the lane - the overtaking driver will probably be breaking the speed limit, there are often pinch points, parked cars, children, and if someone's going to overtake me they need to ensure their own safety by checking oncoming traffic - not gamble with mine by passing me too close. I will also ride in the middle of the lane on 40mph country roads - often there are blind bends, there's little traffic, you have better visibility there, and if you're happy for the car to pass you can move to the left to make it easier for them.

thelawnet

Bongles wrote: »

Hand on heart, do you think that's a good idea? If someone's acting that inconsiderately towards you, they're unlikely to be receptive to your opinion of their driving, even if you're right. I think you'd be very likely to be perceived as antagonistic, even if that's not your intention. And that doesn't help anybody's road safety. Not yours (as you found out last time you did it). Not the next cyclist they come across. Not all the other road users (whether pedestrian, cyclist, driver or other) that they aren't paying proper attention to because they're still wound up from their encounter with you.

It's very difficult to make someone's driving better unless they want you to. It's extremely easy to make someone's driving worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jclIjO_6I9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD56P9fCXG0

(I think he's still speeding in the second clip mind)

Bongles

thelawnet wrote: »

Eh? Why would they need to pass you, you are turning right, they are turning right, there is no cause for them to pass you, you take it in turns, you got there first, you go first.

The junction layout might be conducive to a car driver overtaking a cyclist as they both make the right turn. There would have to be enough space for both to get where they're trying to go without coming into conflict - some junctions there will be, some there won't. I guess at the junctions DCodd is thinking of, there is sufficient space.

Certainly, if you got there first, you go first. But once you're both moving, I think everyone would agree that if there's a safe opportunity for the vehicle behind to overtake (by which, I do not mean a gap that's half an inch wider than the car that they can ram their way through), there's no need to position to prevent them from doing so. I think DCodd's suggestion is that that safe opportunity may be during the right turn on the junction.

DCodd

thelawnet wrote: »

Eh? Why would they need to pass you, you are turning right, they are turning right, there is no cause for them to pass you, you take it in turns, you got there first, you go first.



There's no blanket right or wrong on this. If I'm riding on a quiet country road I will ride in the middle of the lane, otoh, on a road like this one:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=woking&aq=&sll=51.35301,-0.537043&sspn=0.009193,0.026157&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Woking,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.280709,-0.573692&spn=0.07323,0.209255&z=13&layer=c&cbll=51.280503,-0.573525&panoid=58_0fceZdmhrn-rMXJ3F7g&cbp=12,169.07,,0,18.75

where it's 50mph, and cars do more, the lanes are wide enough for cars to pass you without hitting oncoming traffic, so I get over as far as possible. It's not particularly pleasant of course, and you don't necessarily fancy HGVs passing you with traffic coming the other way (in this case it may be best to make eye contact with the HGV and move out a little if there is traffic coming towards you), which is why it's best to avoid busy A roads if possible.

OTOH, on a road like this:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=guildford&aq=&sll=51.280495,-0.573521&sspn=0.071297,0.209255&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Guildford,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.245531,-0.571718&spn=0.035461,0.104628&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.24545,-0.571697&panoid=kKE7sqq1G_XTe2QKrlEKBw&cbp=12,333.94,,0,14.69

I will ride in the middle of the lane, there's a roundabout ahead, stop-start traffic, and no point whatsoever in cars overtaking you.

Generally speaking on 30mph roads I prefer to be in the middle of the lane - the overtaking driver will probably be breaking the speed limit, there are often pinch points, parked cars, children, and if someone's going to overtake me they need to ensure their own safety by checking oncoming traffic - not gamble with mine by passing me too close. I will also ride in the middle of the lane on 40mph country roads - often there are blind bends, there's little traffic, you have better visibility there, and if you're happy for the car to pass you can move to the left to make it easier for them.

This is the issue I have, I can not for the life of me understand why some cyclists seem to think that they have the right to dicate the traffic flow for other road users. If a vehicle wishes to pass you, for what ever reason, why on Earth would you decide that they can not? When cycling I am more than aware of the fact that I am the one who will come off worse in an accident, so I will do everything I possibily can to avoid being in a position where I might be involved in one.

If you approach a roundabout or a turning and there is a slow moving traffic jam, do you stay behind the car in front of you or do you over/under take the slow moving traffic? We do it on a regular basis so why not expect a vehicle driver to do the same to us when we are the slower moving traffic?

edit to say.. this post sounds like I am accusing thelawnet of being such a cyclist, I apologise as it was not meant to in any way.

discplayer

DCodd wrote: »

This is the issue I have, I can not for the life of me understand why some cyclists seem to think that they have the right to dicate the traffic flow for other road users. If a vehicle wishes to pass you, for what ever reason, why on Earth would you decide that they can not? ...

If you approach a roundabout or a turning and there is a slow moving traffic jam, do you stay behind the car in front of you or do you over/under take the slow moving traffic? We do it on a regular basis so why not expect a vehicle driver to do the same to us when we are the slower moving traffic?

Hello. On my reading you're mixing two things here. There's being in the right position at a junction/allowing others in the junction ahead of you to complete their manoeuvre and then there's travelling down a straight road.

The official guidance on cycling (cyclecraft) says, if I remember correctly, to move to the middle of a lane at junctions as it improves your visibility to others behind and on other parts of the junction and it improves your sight-lines around the junction. You should move back towards the left as soon as safe to do so.

Similarly, when driving along the motorway or a dual carriage way I might be in the overtaking lane but I should not hold others up by sitting there at 60, I should move left as soon as safe to do so.

thelawnet

DCodd wrote: »

This is the issue I have, I can not for the life of me understand why some cyclists seem to think that they have the right to dicate the traffic flow for other road users. If a vehicle wishes to pass you, for what ever reason, why on Earth would you decide that they can not?

Other road users can do what they want. If they want to overtake - go for it. The only thing I will sometimes do is use my lane, my right of way to encourage them not to cut me up or knock me off by passing me too close when there is no room.

The other day for example I was cycling along here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=westfield+avenue,+woking&aq=&sll=51.245477,-0.571718&sspn=0.035676,0.104628&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Westfield+Ave,+Woking+GU22,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.306204,-0.560303&spn=0.008854,0.026157&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.306296,-0.560282&panoid=PN0scWdonOcC0X-IMVweEQ&cbp=12,172.75,,0,13.04

I could hear a revving engine coming out of the gym driveway as I cycled down the road, I would have been doing about 18mph, I watch carefully - it turns out to be a black Rage Rover Sport HSE, and he turns left (following me) after I pass.

As you can see from the streetview there's a pinch point two drives down, a pedestrian island. A Rage Rover is one of the widest cars on the road and by driving such a ridiculous vehicle and revving the engine I already know the driver is likely to be aggressive and dangerous and may put my life at risk by performing a dangerous overtake where the road doesn't allow it. If you ride on the edge of the road you are basically inviting the driver to pass you. Maybe he will wait until his safe, maybe not.

The fact is many drivers have a mental disorder when it comes to cyclists. When I'm cycling in urban areas cars tend to clog up the streets slowing me down - I can be queueing at traffic lights, with 20 or 30 cars in front, sometimes I have to wait several changes because of all the cars holding me up. The driver behind however doesn't see it that way - he only sees there's a bicycle, it's in front of him, therefore it's holding him up, and he will pass IMMEDIATELY, 'get the hell out of my way, you are only a bicycle, get off the road, you don't pay road tax', etc.. The mental disorder that drivers suffer from with regard to cyclists means that when I'm driving my car on more than one occasion I've had to take evasive action because of lunatics overtaking bicycles on blind bends rather than waiting 5 seconds till it was safe.

Anyway, to get back to the situation with the Range Rover because of the pinch point down the road it's unsafe for me to ride in the gutter, the best case is the car cuts me up and I'm forced to brake as he pulls back in, and whereas car drivers just press a pedal to go faster, if you force a cyclist to brake out of selfishness it takes significant effort to get back up to speed again. So no, I won't be cut up, and I certainly won't invite a 3-tonne 5-litre turbo-charged 4x4 to overtake me where there's no room.

So I cycle through the pinch point and as I do the Range Rover overtakes on the other side of the road, roaring past the other side of the island. Bit pointless because I would have moved over as soon as I'd got through the pinch point:

(here is the close-up):

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=westfield+avenue,+woking&aq=&sll=51.245477,-0.571718&sspn=0.035676,0.104628&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Westfield+Ave,+Woking+GU22,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.305815,-0.560346&spn=0.008854,0.026157&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.305718,-0.560362&panoid=PTAnbrPg8R--eOK59xSpLw&cbp=12,188.55,,0,17.11

And he roars off down the road, only to get stuck in a queue turning right at the bottom. I'm also turning right, and I filter past, hopefully pointing out to him that no way was it worth it.

When cycling I am more than aware of the fact that I am the one who will come off worse in an accident, so I will do everything I possibily can to avoid being in a position where I might be involved in one.

By riding along the egde of the road you put yourself at danger. In the example above the psycho in the Range Rover was the wrong side of two bollards and a concrete island - if he gets into an accident it's going to be him crashing into oncoming traffic or an emerging car; otoh if I stayed where I was he is very likely to put me at danger. As I said people are more than welcome to overtake me, any time they like, but they do so at their own risk - not mine.

Pinch points such as the one above are very common on British roads, not just pedestrian islands, but things like cycle lanes that disappear abruptly dumping you into the main body of traffic (you'd be better off in the main traffic flow to start with - they wouldn't dream of having a road that led straight into a set of iron railings or whatever other nonsense they do for traffic lanes), you also get roads narrowing near junctions, for bridges and tunnels, and many other situations. As a cyclist you are vulnerable, take control of your own safety - don't assume that there's room for two in your lane, ALWAYS err on the side of caution, some moron in a BMW having to wait for 5 seconds till it's safe to pass on the opposite carriageway is NOT worth your life, don't let yourself be bullied.

The chances of a car going into the back of you is very small, only a small minority of accidents occur like this, and these usually because cyclists have made the dangerous decision to cycle on 70mph dual carriageways. If you cycle in the driver's line of sight, in the middle of where the car's wheels would be, you are safer, you are more visible, you should move to the left of this position only when it's safe (busy, faster roads, wider roads with no parked cars, etc.).

If you approach a roundabout or a turning and there is a slow moving traffic jam, do you stay behind the car in front of you or do you over/under take the slow moving traffic? We do it on a regular basis so why not expect a vehicle driver to do the same to us when we are the slower moving traffic?

Firstly as a cyclist I avoid dangerous manuevers. Secondly, as a cyclist it is almost impossible for me to injure a car driver, so if I did something dangerous - it's on MY risk. Thirdly, if a car is blocking my way at a roundabout, so be it, I'll wait behind him.

In reverse - as a cyclist you should discourage dangerous maneuvers by drivers. Secondly, cars can easily kill or seriously injure cyclists. Thirdly, if I am in a car's way, so be it, he'll wait behind me.

Impatience by car drivers is their problem - my safety is mine. There is no proportionality between a filtering cyclist, who may cause minor irritation to a motorist, and a motorist overtaking dangerously and potentially killing you.

DCodd

The problem with official guidance is that it only works properly if all the other road users are aware of it, the highway code does not mention anything about the central positioning of cyclists at junctions being official advice so the other road users will not be aware of this.

The impatience issue can very quickly become your safety issue.

Cash-Strapped.T32

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Normally I can hear if there is a car behind me and I am trusting the driver not to overtake as I pass a parked vehicle. How would most car drivers react if they were overtaken while moving out to pass a parked car?

When on smaller capacity bikes I've had guys on bigger bikes overtake me, while I was moving out to pass parked cars - Damn I've had them overtake me while I was overtaking moving cars & trucks too.:eek:
How does it make you feel?

You absolutely s***-it every time, because you know deep down, that there's no way they possibly could know how far you were going to swing-out, and on a smaller bike an overtake might be quite the commitment, with less opportunity to back down than you'd like.

I know this thread has mainly been about bikes & cars but I think it's a PoV worth mentioning because many of the problems are shared.
Definitely agree with the OP about this;

I always get as far forward as I can, without putting myself at risk from the traffic coming from the right. This helps my chances of getting across if a gap in the traffic opens up. And as you say, it helps not to annoy vehicles behind me.

As-too with the poster who mentioned moving to the right of your lane if stopped to take a right-hand side road whenever it's safe to do so.

Certainly on a bike I can nearly always pass a stopped car safely on the left if he/she is going right, as long as they are half-way reasonable, but I imagine for cars it's extremely annoying to be stopped on the way to work on an otherwise clear road, you know there's lights up ahead you'll catch, and some dozy muppet is plonked bang in the middle or left of a wide lane when with a little consideration the entire queue behind them could progress.

Conversely, I try to make sure I am not that same muppet holding other people in cars up.
And it's the poor considerate drivers who would be stuck waiting if I'm positioned badly or just not as on the ball as I might be, not the rude ones who push past anyway, which makes it all the worse.

So as long as it's reasonably safe I will always move as much as possible to allow cars to pass me.
Of course there are the odd times when I *have* to control the lane as another poster put it above, but personally I find those times quite rare on roads that I travel frequently - that's more something you find when you're unfamiliar with an area in my experience, as a bit local experience often teaches you the safest spots.

The extra road presence on a biggish bike, and obviously the fact that they're highly unlikely to be able to cross my path due to my faster take-off does make it easier for motorbikes though I will admit.

thelawnet

DCodd wrote: »

The problem with official guidance is that it only works properly if all the other road users are aware of it, the highway code does not mention anything about the central positioning of cyclists at junctions being official advice so the other road users will not be aware of this.

The impatience issue can very quickly become your safety issue.

That's your assumption, it's not my experience. The reality is motorists usually have to wait only a few seconds to get past and they are very unlikely to drive into you. There are several dozen cyclists killed by motor vehicles each year, I don't ever remember hearing road rage due to cyclists not getting out of the way cited as the cause.

DCodd

thelawnet wrote: »

That's your assumption, it's not my experience. The reality is motorists usually have to wait only a few seconds to get past and they are very unlikely to drive into you. There are several dozen cyclists killed by motor vehicles each year, I don't ever remember hearing road rage due to cyclists not getting out of the way cited as the cause.

Actualy it's my experience not an assumption. The reality is that rush hour traffic is full of drivers and road users of all description (inc cyclists) that are not at their best, concentration wise and are more concerned about getting to work or home, they are tired and usualy short tempered (well in Surrey anyway).