Oyster Reader Faulty So Unable To Tap In, Paid Max Fair And Charged Penalty Notice.

strawberries1

Hello all,

I have a zone 2 and 3 travel card and took a bus 302 to Kensal Rise the final stop. I got on the over ground Kensal Rise but the oyster reader wasn't working properly. It peeped for some and didnt for others. The station wasnt manned and I got on the train. It's a zone 2 station and I had the card already on my oyster. I was heading to Ilford a zone 4 station and had found out from the tfl website that I can pay with oyster top up so I had cash topped up on my oyster already. I changed trains at stratford from the over ground to Ilford but didnt have to go out so I still hadn't tapped. I never go to the east or use national rail and thought zone 1 - 6 was london and you can pay with oyster if it's past ur card zone.

I got to Ilford and there were staff there so just as I was about to touch out I asked if it will charge me the maximum fare as kensal rise was acting up. He said I shouldn't tap and used his hand to prevent me do so. I thought he was trying to prevent me having to pay the max fare. He covered the reader and waved me to a guy by the side. The guy collected my oyster and asked me where I started my journey from etc. Next thing he flipped a note pad and his other collegues smiled, grined etc. Then I realised he was issuing me a penalty fare for £20. I almost started crying cos I felt deceived, humiliated, cheated etc. I kept trying to explain to him but he was rude and arrogant, raising his voice. Then another man showed up who said he's a policeman etc. I didnt show any ID but gave my correct name, birthday, telephone number and address which he called to confirm. I didnt pay the notice there as I had my fare on the oyster and nothing else. The form says my address is confirmed. I spent over 20mins trying to explain I had the cash for my zone 4 on the oyster and my zone 2 -3 is a travel card and he can check my oyster to see where my journey started from. He said he had no business with that and didnt know any station called kensal rise. I think I have to stop using oyster and buy paper tickets only and not go to east london.

From what I've read here it seems national rail staff are always right and appealing is just a formality.
I can not afford to pay £20 and did have my travel card and cash on my oyster. I shouldn't be punished for failed technology. My card was on the oyster and cash on it for zone 4.

After he'd gotten my details he said to pay within 21 days or I'll go to court and anything can happen after that. Then he said I could go. Now I was allowed to tap my oyster and then it charged me the maximum fair of £3.50 instead of £1 or so for zone 4.

I got a penalty fare cos I asked the national rail guy if it will be max fare or single and he instantly saw that I was a catch. I can't believe it still.

Please help me. If I write to appeal and refuse to pay, the appeal service IAS will find in their favour and the court will also find in their favour. So what happens if I decide not to appeal and when the letter comes I claim it wasn't my oyster, it wasn't me and someone gave my details? Please help I'm desperate.

Thank you.

cubegame

Did you pay the penalty fare?

Livingthedream

strawberries1 wrote: »

Please help me. If I write to appeal and refuse to pay, the appeal service IAS will find in their favour and the court will also find in their favour. So what happens if I decide not to appeal and when the letter comes I claim it wasn't my oyster, it wasn't me and someone gave my details? Please help I'm desperate.

Thank you.

Appeal the PFN stating the mitigation that you have told us above, if TfL uphold your appeal then great. If you lose your appeal then the PFN will still have a timeline before it;
1. charge goes up.
2. goes to court.

If you decide that in your eyes you are in the right then have your day in court, but please get some legal advice (1st half hour is free) but understand this if you lose you will pay alot more in court costs, than a £20 penalty.

Please don't ignore or try pull a fast one with this, all TfL stations have CCTV and I don't think the magistrate would be impressed when the prosecution states 'Your worship, the defendant states it wasn't him, but you can clearly see from this...............'

Stigy

As Livingthedream stated, you should obviously appeal the PF via the relevant channels. If you do end up going to Court, make sure you have documented with letters etc, exactly what has been going on, if nothing else to show the Magistrates that you haven't simply ignored a PF that was legitimately issued! Bear in mind it will be the original offence that's prosecuted of a Byelaw (usually) and not an unpaid debt, as the PFN is civil in itself.

dinoman88

Hello,

A simple search into google revealed a guide to avoding the penalty fare you speak of.

thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

OUR 10 RULES FOR BEATING THE TICKET INSPECTOR
This advice is for National Rail services only. TfL has different rules with fewer safeguards. No legal liability is accepted.
1 Make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket before you get on.
It will weaken your case if you start from a station where there is a functioning ticket office or machine but make no attempt to use them. This does not, however, mean that you have to wait in a long queue and miss your train. See Rule Eight for the Government's guidance on what constitutes a reasonable waiting time.

2 If asked for a penalty fare, check that you actually have to pay one.
There are several non-penalty fare locations in London and the South- East - most importantly, Stansted airport. If your journey started at one of these locations, you cannot be charged a penalty fare. This probably applies even if you changed trains on to a penalty-fare service en route (see other box for full details).
There are other lines on which one operator has penalty fares and another does not (see box). If, for instance, you are asked for a penalty fare at the excess fares office at Euston and you have arrived on a train run by Virgin, not London Midland, you do not have to pay the penalty.
If you forget your season ticket, you do not have to pay a penalty fare. You may be issued with a "nil fare" penalty notice and asked to send in a photocopy of your season, or asked to buy a normal single ticket (which you can then get refunded at a ticket office on production of your season). You can only do this twice a year.
If you have a ticket between two places with multiple rail routes (eg London-Southend) but it is not valid for the route you are using, you cannot be charged a penalty fare - only the difference in price between the routes.
If you have a ticket for the right journey but it is not valid on the particular train you are using, this is a grey area. The Department for Transport's "Penalty Fares Policy" (clause 4.29) says you should not be charged a penalty fare, just the difference in price. But the National Rail conditions of carriage say holders of "some types of discounted tickets" can be charged a penalty. It is definitely worth arguing the point.

3 Check that the person asking for a penalty fare is an "authorised collector".
Under the Penalty Fares Rules 2002, sections 5 (2) and (3), only an "authorised collector ...individually authorised by or on behalf of the operator of that train" is allowed to collect penalty fares. Not all train guards and excess ticket office staff are authorised collectors. You have the right to ask them to produce the special identification document which proves that they are. (This also helps to return a measure of the "embarrassment factor", which some collectors use to get travellers to pay up.)
Check also whether the person asking you for a penalty has been authorised by the operator whose train you travelled on. At stations served by more than one train company, even where they both have penalty fares schemes, it may be that the people on the ticket barrier are authorised by one operator but not by the operator you used.

4 Even if they pass these tests, politely refuse to pay the penalty and simply pay the full single fare.
On the train or at the station, you have the absolute right to make only "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied." This is section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 - quote it if anyone tries to tell you different. (The full single fare means the fare without any railcard discounts, cheap offers etc.) Ignore any threats that may be made at this point if you refuse to pay the full sum - these are phoney and have no legal basis.

5 Never pay the penalty in the belief that you can recover it on appeal.
You are allowed to appeal against a penalty fare to one of two supposedly "independent" bodies. Most operators use the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), others the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). But IPFAS is in fact owned by Southeastern Trains, is based at Southeastern's head office and all its staff are Southeastern employees. IAS was also until recently based in railway offices and its company secretary is a director of the company which runs the railways' ticketing system. In short, the appeal process is not independent of the rail operators, is not operated in your interests and is most unlikely to recover your money.

6 Give your correct name, address and journey details.
Once you have paid the single fare, the collector will then ask for your name and address so that they can send a demand for the rest to be paid within 21 days. They can check names and addresses while you wait with the electoral roll database. The only criminal offence in the whole penalty fares legislation is refusing to give a name and address, or giving a false one. So give the right details.

7 Once you have paid the minimum, they will hand you a form.
Check this carefully. It must show the authorised collector's name and identity, your correct details, the details of the journey you have taken and how much you have paid. Collectors are often careless. If any of these details are omitted or are wrong, and you can prove it, it is game over.

8 When the letter demanding the rest arrives, write back politely, again refusing to pay, and explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket before travelling.
This is where the most useful part of the Penalty Fares Rules comes in - Rule 7 (4), which states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make".
The Rules themselves do not define what "no facilities available" means. But in separate guidance on penalty fares ("Penalty Fares Policy") issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given "sufficent opportunity" to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is "sufficient".
It is not clear whether this definition has any legal force - but if you quote it in your letter back to the train company, you are unlikely to be bothered again.
The Penalty Fares Policy also tells companies to "use discretion" towards the elderly, pregnant women, people who have enough money to buy a ticket "but not in the form needed to use the [ticket] machine" and "all passengers when the train service is severely disrupted". Once again, if you can truthfully quote any of these, you are unlikely to be bothered.

9 Remember: penalty fares are a civil, not a criminal-matter.
Train companies often scare people into paying up by threatening prosecution and a criminal record. However, the legislation establishing penalty fares, the Railways Act 1993, section 130, states that apart from failing to give your right name and address, "nothing in this section creates, or authorises the creation of any [criminal] offence". The Penalty Fares Regulations 1994 state that "the recovery of a penalty fare is a civil debt". So even if after reading your letter the company still decides it wants the money, it has to sue you - probably not worthwhile for such a small sum.
Railway companies sometimes threaten people with the main criminal law against fare-dodgers, the Regulation of Railways Act1889. But this says there has to be "intent to avoid payment". You could argue that you haven't intended to avoid payment because you have, in fact, paid the full single fare.

10 But don't abuse the system.
The safeguards provided in the law and the regulations are intended for people who want to pay the proper fare but occasionally fall foul of inadequate facilities. If you constantly board trains without buying a ticket, or if you lie to train company staff, this could be construed as intent to avoid payment and the chances of criminal prosecution will rise.

Stigy

Once again, I'd urge people not to take Dino's post as Gospel.

dinoman88

Stigy wrote: »

Once again, I'd urge people not to take Dino's post as Gospel.

I'm sure users of this forum have a bit of common sense and will do their own research alongside.

Livingthedream

To help people with their research, please visit this forum

yorkie2

strawberries1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I have a zone 2 and 3 travel card and took a bus 302 to Kensal Rise the final stop. I got on the over ground Kensal Rise but the oyster reader wasn't working properly. It peeped for some and didnt for others. The station wasnt manned and I got on the train. It's a zone 2 station and I had the card already on my oyster. I was heading to Ilford a zone 4 station and had found out from the tfl website that I can pay with oyster top up so I had cash topped up on my oyster already. I changed trains at stratford from the over ground to Ilford but didnt have to go out so I still hadn't tapped. I never go to the east or use national rail and thought zone 1 - 6 was london and you can pay with oyster if it's past ur card zone.

Yes, you can use PAYG to extend your Travelcard up to Zones 9 (+Watford/Grays) but you must touch in to do that!

You can try using the excuse about your origin, but then why did you not touch in at Stratford is what they will ask?

I have asked elsewhere some questions that may assist in this area.

I suggest you ask the Oyster Helpdesk for an enhanced history of your Oyster log, as this may assist. But if it shows no touching in at Kensal Rise, then it's difficult to see how that would help. You could try asking the Helpdesk if they are aware of any problems at Kensal Rise at the time of your journey.

strawberries1 wrote: »

I got to Ilford and there were staff there so just as I was about to touch out I asked if it will charge me the maximum fare as kensal rise was acting up.

If you are ever charged a max fare my advice would be to contact the Oyster helpline when you get home.

strawberries1 wrote: »

He said I shouldn't tap and used his hand to prevent me do so.

I think had you done so and then asked, he couldn't have done anything, by stopping you doing so he was able to issue the PF.

Touching in does not really matter when you are travelling wholly within your Zones. But if you head out of the Zones, you are then on PAYG and it is then absolutely crucial to be touched in.

strawberries1 wrote: »

I thought he was trying to prevent me having to pay the max fare.

I don't think, at this stage, that could have been prevented... although it could have still been resolved after the fact.

strawberries1 wrote: »

He covered the reader and waved me to a guy by the side. The guy collected my oyster and asked me where I started my journey from etc. Next thing he flipped a note pad and his other collegues smiled, grined etc. Then I realised he was issuing me a penalty fare for £20. I almost started crying cos I felt deceived, humiliated, cheated etc. I kept trying to explain to him but he was rude and arrogant, raising his voice.

That does not surprise me. Not all RPIs are like that (I know some friendly ones!) but some certainly are.

strawberries1 wrote: »

Then another man showed up who said he's a policeman etc. I didnt show any ID but gave my correct name, birthday, telephone number and address which he called to confirm. I didnt pay the notice there as I had my fare on the oyster and nothing else. The form says my address is confirmed. I spent over 20mins trying to explain I had the cash for my zone 4 on the oyster and my zone 2 -3 is a travel card

That doesn't mean you can't be charged a PF. Having a ticket for part of your journey and the means to pay the rest just means that you are less likely to be prosecuted. It doesn't mean a PF isn't applicable.

strawberries1 wrote: »

and he can check my oyster to see where my journey started from.

Well, yes, but it appears that in your case the Oyster reader did not register your card at Kensal Rise. If it had there would be no issue. Alternatively had you touched in at Stratford, then no issue.

strawberries1 wrote: »

He said he had no business with that

No, that is his business!

strawberries1 wrote: »

and didnt know any station called kensal rise.

Really? I believe the PF notice may have to state your origin, in this case Kensal Rise. What did he put as the origin?

strawberries1 wrote: »

I think I have to stop using oyster and buy paper tickets only and not go to east london.

Or touch in!

Though avoiding East London sounds good, I don't particularly like the area

strawberries1 wrote: »

From what I've read here it seems national rail staff are always right and appealing is just a formality.
I can not afford to pay £20 and did have my travel card and cash on my oyster.

Pay it, then appeal.

More detail on what is on the PF notice would be helpful to anyone providing you with advice.

strawberries1 wrote: »

I shouldn't be punished for failed technology.

I agree but technically a PF is not a punishment, it's a fare. If they were pushing for a punishment they'd be prosecuting you.

strawberries1 wrote: »

My card was on the oyster and cash on it for zone 4.

But not touched in, so no deduction had been made from the cash.

strawberries1 wrote: »

After he'd gotten my details he said to pay within 21 days or I'll go to court and anything can happen after that. Then he said I could go. Now I was allowed to tap my oyster and then it charged me the maximum fair of £3.50 instead of £1 or so for zone 4.

I got a penalty fare cos I asked the national rail guy if it will be max fare or single and he instantly saw that I was a catch. I can't believe it still.

I agree, that sounds underhand.

strawberries1 wrote: »

Please help me. If I write to appeal and refuse to pay, the appeal service IAS will find in their favour and the court will also find in their favour. So what happens if I decide not to appeal and when the letter comes I claim it wasn't my oyster, it wasn't me and someone gave my details? Please help I'm desperate.

Thank you.

Best advice is to pay and appeal.

Refusal to pay will make it worse (increased fee; possible criminal record if you refuse to pay outright)

A useful website for Oyster is: www.oyster-rail.org.uk

This is run by MikeWh, one of the best Oyster experts around.

I have posted on a specialist rail forum Railforums.co.uk. MikeWh posts there and will no doubt reply tomorrow. Also TfL employees post there too, along with experts on this forum (e.g. Stigy and bb21) posting there more frequently. So, if anywhere can help, that place can.

Good luck!

Edit: you have a reply from a member of TfL staff. You may find it useful.

Livingthedream

Yorkie, hasn't the appeal time now past for the OP to appeal the PFN? and shouldn't this now be handled as a complaint to TfL.

Unfortunately this thread has been resurrected by a poster for his own gains and not to help the OP.

yorkie2

Livingthedream wrote: »

Yorkie, hasn't the appeal time now past for the OP to appeal the PFN? and shouldn't this now be handled as a complaint to TfL.

Unfortunately this thread has been resurrected by a poster for his own gains and not to help the OP.

Oh. I see. Looking at the dates. Someone has been naughty posting spam.

Anyway if the OP does return to this, my next question would be: what time were you at Kensal Rise?