£8000 unexpected underpayment of tax due to a catalogue of errors with tax office and

System

family_man wrote: »

I would rather not post any documents on here and I cant seem too anyway as its not giving me the option. I have my p60s and p800s would anyone be prepared to have a quick look over them if they PM me with their email address please. I have scanned them and kept the files a high quality and as small as possible, only 2meg for 5 documents. I would have no idea if the figures were right or not and I would really appreciate it. I agree it has to be worth checking. It’s just finding this whole situation very frustrating and I am under a lot of pressure from it.

You have got to be joking.

You SHOULD NOT even dream of sending copies of PRIVATE documents to complete strangers, have you never heard about IDENTITY THEFT ?

:eek::(:eek:

hopon

BAA1 wrote: »

You have got to be joking.

You SHOULD NOT even dream of sending copies of PRIVATE documents to complete strangers, have you never heard about IDENTITY THEFT ?

:eek::(:eek:

As long as any personal info is blocked out - name, address, nino, utr etc etc then for id theft they should be worthless. At least actually seeing the source figures the P800's can be checked.

jimmo

This is a link to Extra Statutory Concession A19 which you may find useful.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/esc/esc.htm
Perhaps the first thing to consider is when did HMRC first receive relevant information which would have lead them to believe that you had underpaid tax.
If the first tax year that you had an underpayment was 2007/08 (year ended 5 April 2008) then, as your employer did not send in your P45 it is very likely that HMRC first would have received information in May or June 2008 when your employer submitted its annual return of employees pay and tax. As well as other things, the employer's annual return includes a P14 for each employee.
I have to admit that I thought that the P14 was relevant information until another poster, Mikeyorks, pointed out on another thread that a P14 is not mentioned as relevant information in the literature on ESC A14.
This link definitely confirms that a P14 is not relevant information
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/PAYE95055.htm
Bearing that in mind, can you pin point a date when HMRC would have received relevant information?
Under the terms of Extra Statutory Concession A 19 HMRC had until 5 April of the Tax Year following the Tax Year in which they received relevant information. So, if you cannot establish when HMRC would have received relevant information, you cannot establish whether time had run out for them to charge you for the underpayment.
On the face of it, you have a fairly slim chance, but still a chance.
If the first tax year that you had an underpayment was 2008/09 (year ended 5 April 2009) then, at best, HMRC first received relevant information in May or June 2009.
Under the terms of the Concession HMRC have until 5 April 2011 to notify you. They have already done so, so the Concession cannot possibly apply.
However, if the Concession does apply for 2007/08 there is every chance that 2008/09 can come within the Concession as a repeated failure.
Just to summarise that, if the first underpayment arose in 2007/08 you have a chance.
If you get past that you then need to consider the Reasonable Belief test.
Whilst the amount of your taxable income is not necessarily a pointer to how much you should or should not know about Income Tax it does lead people to make assumptions. You have seen that on here and you really should understand that the level of your income is almost certainly more than twice, and probably more than 3 times, that of the people who you may talk to at HMRC. They really may struggle, initially at least, to accept your lack of understanding of the system.
At this point, only you can judge whether it is worthwhile following up on Extra Statutory Concession A19 because only you know the facts. I think it is also worth pointing out that the Extra Statutory Concession is an administrative practice and is something HMRC does over and above its legal obligations when it is at fault.
In legal terms your tax liability is your own liability and you have to pay it.
If the Concession does not apply but HMRC or your employer at fault the best you can expect from any compensation is to put you back to the position you would have been in if you had suffered the correct deductions at the correct time. In other words you will still have to pay the tax but may claim your costs for getting the mess sorted out.
Apart from ESC A19, there has been quite a bit of fuss recently about HMRC's computer records being duplicated for people. A number of people have received P800s showing their employment income twice doubling their income.
Has this happened to you?
If you don't want to share your tax details on a forum that's fair enough. I can't speak for others but I don't do PM's. If I advise you on an open forum and I get it wrong you can be certain that someone will spot the error and correct it.
With £8,000 at stake for you that is an awful lot of money and I think you have 2 choices.
Publish the dates and figures (no personal details) and get free help.
Take professional advice and be prepared to pay for it.

Mikeyorks

family_man wrote: »

I have my p60s and p800s would anyone be prepared to have a quick look over them if they PM me

That offer was made to you in the final sentence of post #38. It will take a few extra minutes - but just give the figures (off the P800s and pay / tax / Code from the relevant P60) to the lady concerned in a PM. No need to scan / therefore no personal data.

jem16

jimmo wrote: »

If the first tax year that you had an underpayment was 2008/09 (year ended 5 April 2009) then, at best, HMRC first received relevant information in May or June 2009.
Under the terms of the Concession HMRC have until 5 April 2011 to notify you.

Jimmo - surely if the 08/09 tax year ended on 5th April 2009, HMRC have until 5th April 2010 and not 5th April 2011 to act upon it?

From your link;

Time limits
The time limit which applies for ESC A19 is where HMRC have failed to use information received about a source of income, within 12 months after the end of the tax year in which the information is received.

For example: on 1 August 2007 HMRC received information about commencement of a new pension in tax year 2007-08 and the end of that tax year is 5 April 2008. HMRC should have either issued a tax code or sent a tax calculation for the above receipt of information before 5 April 2009, which is 12 months after the last day of the tax year 2007-08.

AirlieBird

I'm confused how such a large underpayment could occur if you are just over the higher rate threshold from tax codes you could have been put on when starting a new job.

If the employer didn't process the P45 then the P60 won't contain the necessary earnings and tax from the previous employment and won't help in calculating the overall tax due.

I understand why you wouldn't want to post personal details on a public forum, but could you help us a little bit by posting what tax code you were on for the years in question? Are you on the correct tax code now?

jimmo

jem16 wrote: »

Jimmo - surely if the 08/09 tax year ended on 5th April 2009, HMRC have until 5th April 2010 and not 5th April 2011 to act upon it?

From your link;

Time limits
The time limit which applies for ESC A19 is where HMRC have failed to use information received about a source of income, within 12 months after the end of the tax year in which the information is received.

For example: on 1 August 2007 HMRC received information about commencement of a new pension in tax year 2007-08 and the end of that tax year is 5 April 2008. HMRC should have either issued a tax code or sent a tax calculation for the above receipt of information before 5 April 2009, which is 12 months after the last day of the tax year 2007-08.

For any year HMRC's time limit runs from the date that HMRC receives relevant information. That is most definitely a different thing to the tax year.
Assuming 2008/09 is the year that the OP started this employment it is normally entirely possible that HMRC could have received relevant information during 2008/09. However we already know that whilst he claims to have handed his P45 to his employer on commencement it was definitely not sent to HMRC.
As you have taken the responsibility of privately reviewing the OP's figures, you probably have the best chance of identifying whether or not HMRC will have received relevant information during 2008/09.
On the basis of what has been posted on here I find it hard to believe that you will find anything but good luck.
As far as I can tell the first that HMRC will have learned about the OP's employment and higher rate liability will be the employer's end of year return for 2008/09 which they should have received some time early in 2009/10. As previously discussed that is not relevant information but, even if it was, HMRC would still have until 5/4/2011 to act upon it.

jem16

jimmo wrote: »

For any year HMRC's time limit runs from the date that HMRC receives relevant information. That is most definitely a different thing to the tax year.
Assuming 2008/09 is the year that the OP started this employment it is normally entirely possible that HMRC could have received relevant information during 2008/09. However we already know that whilst he claims to have handed his P45 to his employer on commencement it was definitely not sent to HMRC.

Right I am with you now.

Basically you are saying that as the P45 was not sent to HMRC they would have not received any information from the employer until the P60 was issued around May 09. As this would be tax year 09/10 and the end of it would be April 10, they then had until April 11 to notify the OP. Is that correct?

As you have taken the responsibility of privately reviewing the OP's figures, you probably have the best chance of identifying whether or not HMRC will have received relevant information during 2008/09.
On the basis of what has been posted on here I find it hard to believe that you will find anything but good luck.

What kind of thing would I expect to see if the info was received during 08/09?

As to helping the OP, all I have done is check the calculations of the P800 against the P60s and P45.

jimmo

jem16 wrote: »

Basically you are saying that as the P45 was not sent to HMRC they would have not received any information from the employer until the P60 was issued around May 09. As this would be tax year 09/10 and the end of it would be April 10, they then had until April 11 to notify the OP. Is that correct?

Absolutely correct.

jimmo

jem16 wrote: »

What kind of thing would I expect to see if the info was received during 08/09?

I can't imagine anything that would fit the bill but you have to remember that I am a former taxman and may be biased. Also its quite a lot of years since I was directly involved in PAYE.
I really think you will struggle. Also the regular HMRC knockers on this forum have gone quiet. They should be better than me on this but I fear their silence speaks louder than words.