Fine for stopping in a loading bay

Sirdan

MrChips wrote: »

OK - I have been looking on Google for 15 minutes and can't find an explicit definition of parking, waiting and stopping. Can anyone help?

Presumably no stopping means exactly that - you can't stop the car even for a moment (except presumably to check the signage to see if stopping is allowed?)

But what constitutes waiting or parking, and what is the difference between the two? Some sources (including my dictionary) say that parking involves "leaving the vehicle" in some way.

This is as much about me trying to avoid future issues, as resolving this one!

-Waiting restrictions
Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You
may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while
passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs
that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions. The times at which the restrictions apply for other road
markings are shown on nearby plates or on entry signs to controlled parking zones. If no days are
shown on the signs, the restrictions are in force every day including Sundays and Bank Holidays.
White bay markings and upright signs (see below) indicate where parking is allowed.

From the highway code ..so you can stop to drop off or pick up passengers if there are not any loading restrictions in place but it doesn't make clear how long you could wait for a passenger does it ?

MrChips

So does that imply parking is the same as waiting?

Does the highway code actually define "parking" because I couldn't find it. Clearly leaving your car with the handbreak on for 2 hours while going shopping is parking, but isn't there some grey area between stopping and parking/waiting without a proper definition (which as yet I haven't seen)? Stopping at the side of the road to read a map for 15 seconds - is that stopping or parking/waiting? What about for 1 minute, or 5 minutes?

What about stopping at the side of the road because your mobile is ringing? Or because you have a distressed baby in the back seat?

Does the difference depend on the length of the "stop", or the circumstances, or whether you exit the vehicle, or leave the engine on?

EDIT - you've changed your post slightly, which does help to clarify what constitutes waiting, thank you. Is there anything similar on parking?

Sirdan

MrChips wrote: »

So does that imply parking is the same as waiting?

Does the highway code actually define "parking" because I couldn't find it. Clearly leaving your car with the handbreak on for 2 hours while going shopping is parking, but isn't there some grey area between stopping and parking/waiting without a proper definition (which as yet I haven't seen)? Stopping at the side of the road to read a map for 15 seconds - is that stopping or parking/waiting? What about for 1 minute, or 5 minutes?

What about stopping at the side of the road because your mobile is ringing? Or because you have a distressed baby in the back seat?

Does the difference depend on the length of the "stop", or the circumstances, or whether you exit the vehicle, or leave the engine on?

No stopping is waiting is parking.

"6.1 Waiting, Parking and Stopping parking contraventions are contraventions of the relevant TMOs. As described in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, parking and waiting are synonymous. Waiting consists of stopping a vehicle where restrictions apply and can be described as occurring ‘where the vehicle has been permitted to remain at rest’. The definitions of parking and waiting are covered in some detail on the PaTAS website in the ‘key case’ of Schwarz vs Camden"

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/schwarz-v-camden.pdf


The circumstances can be seen as a form of mitigation rather than evidence that you "didn't do it" ..as such they may lead to a cancellation or reduced penalty ..although the Council are very very unlikely to give you this ..only route is an appeal to PATAS. (IMO)

MrChips

That is very helpful, thank you Sirdan.

So in summary (I think)...waiting is synonymous with parking and is effectively that act of permitting one's vehicle to remain at rest where restrictions apply in an act that is not stopping. Whether the driver is with or not with the vehicle is irrelevant.

Stopping can be different (and allowed in some circumstances) to load/unload passengers and or goods.

Correct?

Sirdan

MrChips wrote: »

That is very helpful, thank you Sirdan.

So in summary (I think)...waiting is synonymous with parking and is effectively that act of permitting one's vehicle to remain at rest where restrictions apply in an act that is not stopping. Whether the driver is with or not with the vehicle is irrelevant.

Stopping can be different (and allowed in some circumstances) to load/unload passengers and or goods.

Correct?

I think you have mangled it somewhat .."permitting one's vehicle to remain at rest where restrictions apply in an act that is not stopping."

At rest is stopped surely ? (I take stopped to mean not moving as opposed to engine not running which is not relevant)

However in simple terms the rest is correct ..loading bays should be avoided is the simplest course of action.
that said you need to be wary of the (un) loading restrictions in place for single yellows ..some have them some don't ...

As I said stopping = waiting = parking which may be allowed for drop off or pick up ..or not ..depending on the markings and signage.

Simple isn't it ???

All a question of interpretation particularly picking up passengers.

I would guess that the view of the Council would be that IF stopping to pick up is allowed , then :-

If a person is by the side of the road waiting to be picked up,you stop, pick up and leave that is OK ..BUT

If you stop and have to wait for the person to turn up that is not allowed ..because you are not stopping to pick up you are in fact waiting , which is parking !!

Neil_B

MrChips wrote: »

So does that imply parking is the same as waiting?

Does the highway code actually define "parking" because I couldn't find it. Clearly leaving your car with the handbreak on for 2 hours while going shopping is parking, but isn't there some grey area between stopping and parking/waiting without a proper definition (which as yet I haven't seen)? Stopping at the side of the road to read a map for 15 seconds - is that stopping or parking/waiting? What about for 1 minute, or 5 minutes?

What about stopping at the side of the road because your mobile is ringing? Or because you have a distressed baby in the back seat?

Does the difference depend on the length of the "stop", or the circumstances, or whether you exit the vehicle, or leave the engine on?

EDIT - you've changed your post slightly, which does help to clarify what constitutes waiting, thank you. Is there anything similar on parking?

I agree with Sirdan that parking=waiting but not that stopping is equivalent to those two.

Stopping is the act of just that. The important question is Mr Chips' where he asks where does stopping become waiting. The only relevance here is the enforcement of contraventions. Mr Chips gives example circumstances - and therein, IMO, is the answer. Ultimately it is a matter of fairness (don't tell the Councils they won't like that) and a matter for an adjudicator to decide. There are so many possible circumstances similar to reading a map that you can never get a definitive answer unless the circumstances of a case match a previous ruling.

MrChips

I meant "stopping" in terms of the highway code definition, i.e. there is a difference between a sign saying "no waiting" and "no stopping".

If the sign says no waiting, I can stop there to load and unload passengers and goods (in general, unless there is some sort of additional restriction). However if there is a no stopping sign I can't even do this.

I guess my success in appealing the original ticket is to check if there is a prohibition of stopping (as opposed to waiting/parking) in that loading bay as my deemed offence has been to "park in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle", and if so then to convince them that I was in the act of picking up a passenger - shouldn't be too hard as they have a video of the event I understand and one of their pictures even shows my wife getting into the car. Hopefully two minutes is not deemed excessive time for her to cross the busy road and get into my car. Either that or convince them my little Fiat is a goods vehicle!

I assume the fact I was only 5 minutes from the end of the prescribed hours (it was 6.25pm and the restrictions ceased at 6.30pm won't cut any ice!).

MrChips

Neil_B wrote: »

I agree with Sirdan that parking=waiting but not that stopping is equivalent to those two.

Stopping is the act of just that. The important question is Mr Chips' where he asks where does stopping become waiting. The only relevance here is the enforcement of contraventions. Mr Chips gives example circumstances - and therein, IMO, is the answer. Ultimately it is a matter of fairness (don't tell the Councils they won't like that) and a matter for an adjudicator to decide. There are so many possible circumstances similar to reading a map that you can never get a definitive answer unless the circumstances of a case match a previous ruling.

Thanks Neil B - this concurs more with my, admittedly uninformed, thinking.

So is it the case that the distinction between stopping and waiting is indeed blurred and is to be treated on a case by case basis?

Neil_B

Sirdan wrote: »

-Waiting restrictions
Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You
may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while
passengers board or alight.

From the highway code ..so you can stop to drop off or pick up passengers if there are not any loading restrictions in place but it doesn't make clear how long you could wait for a passenger does it ?

That first sentence is written in a particular order and bracketed for a reason.

Your conclusion that boarding/alighting is not allowed where there are loading restrictions - is wrong.

On how long you may wait - as is necessary for a passenger to safely board or alight. Again will be argued by Councils and ultimately up to an adjudicator - but examples -

leaving vehicle to assist passenger who needs assistance in any way = ok --- in reasonable time it takes according to circumstance.

leaving vehicle to ensure vulnerable passenger secure at destination - same.

waiting in vehicle for someone who has phoned to say ''on my way in 2 minutes'' -- NO.

Sirdan

Neil_B wrote: »

I agree with Sirdan that parking=waiting but not that stopping is equivalent to those two.

Stopping is the act of just that. The important question is Mr Chips' where he asks where does stopping become waiting. The only relevance here is the enforcement of contraventions. Mr Chips gives example circumstances - and therein, IMO, is the answer. Ultimately it is a matter of fairness (don't tell the Councils they won't like that) and a matter for an adjudicator to decide. There are so many possible circumstances similar to reading a map that you can never get a definitive answer unless the circumstances of a case match a previous ruling.

I agree stopping can be different from waiting/parking but it can also be the same.

If you stop to answer your mobile for example ..are you stopping or waiting. I think it is fair to say you are waiting.
Although PATAS seem to think that dictionary definitions are not relevant they could be ..waiting is stopping UNTIL something changes.
In the mobile example you are stopped and WAITING until your call is completed be it 1 minute or 15 minutes.

There is simply no black and white answer and each case will be different .. Ifeel neccessity ought to be a reasonable test.
Is it neccessary to stop to answer a mobile ..no IMO ..what did we do before we had them ?
Is it reasonable to stop for a perceived medical emergency -yes obviously .

This is as I understand it why PATAS exists ..to rule on the fairness not just the legal technicality .