ESA Medical - here we go again!

cit_k

NASA wrote: »

There is a valid reason for that.

Contracts should be kept confidential for reasons that should be clear to anyone with any ounce of sense.


Yes, ATOS can pay their staff however they wish, so long as they obey the law.

Is that unreasonable?

And it would not be against the law to pay out performance related bonuses or bonuses for hitting targets for failing people etc etc.

Thefore, ATOS could be doing so, and as the DWP pay ATOS, indirectly the DWP would then be paying people to be failed to targets or paying people bonuses to fail people.

apf52

There is another misconception about these medicals which I am as guilty as any other of perpetuating. By calling it a medical it gives the impression it is the kind of medical examination a doctor may give you. It is not. It's proper name is the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and is supposed to identify those things you can do rather than concentrating solely on those things you can't do - yes, I know the things you can't do are very important and many feel the 'can do' is given much more weight than the 'can't do' but I didn't make the rules, I'm just quoting them.
The WCA is designed to identify what you can do by asking about what you can do in your every day non-working life and then there are a fixed set of rules set by the government about how that translates into an assessment of you capabilities for work. The fact that the WCA is undertaken by a Health Care Professional (HCP) is meant to ensure that the WCA takes proper note of your medical condition and how it affects you. The HCP is also expected to use their medical training when assessing things like the mobility of your legs and when assessing if either of the non-functional descriptors apply to you (more on them in a bit).
The whole process is supposed to recognize the fact that the same illness in two different people may affect those people very differently, with one person still able to do many things without a problem whilst the other is unable to do those things at all. Hence the apparently random nature of some of the questions. So, for example, being asked about your ability to load and unload the dishwasher is not meant to decide if you can get a job at the Little Chef, it's meant to find out something about your ability to bend and squat which could be applicable to a wide range of jobs.
The non-functional descriptors mentioned above are there to cope with the fact that some people may be terminally ill or may have conditions where their, or someone else's, life or health may be put at risk if they were to attempt to work.
Hope that helps to clarify a bit what the WCA is supposed to be about and the role of the HCP in the process.

rogerblack

apf52 wrote: »

There is another misconception about these medicals which I am as guilty as any other of perpetuating. By calling it a medical it gives the impression it is the kind of medical examination a doctor may give you. It is not. It's proper name is the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and is supposed to identify those things you can do rather than concentrating solely on those things you can't do

This is indeed accurate - it's not ATOSs fault that the descriptors do not match reality in some cases.

However, the medical professional can in fact recommend that you are unfit, as your condition is likely to be severely worsened by attempting to work, even if you do not meet the descriptors.

I question how often they do this.

Also - there are some things that almost can't be gone into in the limited time they have.

They have to assess what activities you can do 'repeatably, and with a reasonable frequency throughout the day' (paraphrasing the ESA medical handbook for HCPs, and the decision makers guide).

45 minutes isn't really enough for this in many cases.

Others have raised the issue of targets. There was a freedom of information request that shed some light on this - ATOS HCPs do not have targets as such. But they are monitored, and any who pass too many/too few are investigated.

As they should be.

cit_k

rogerblack wrote: »

This is indeed accurate - it's not ATOSs fault that the descriptors do not match reality in some cases.

However, the medical professional can in fact recommend that you are unfit, as your condition is likely to be severely worsened by attempting to work, even if you do not meet the descriptors.

I question how often they do this.

Also - there are some things that almost can't be gone into in the limited time they have.

They have to assess what activities you can do 'repeatably, and with a reasonable frequency throughout the day' (paraphrasing the ESA medical handbook for HCPs, and the decision makers guide).

45 minutes isn't really enough for this in many cases.

Others have raised the issue of targets. There was a freedom of information request that shed some light on this - ATOS HCPs do not have targets as such. But they are monitored, and any who pass too many/too few are investigated.

As they should be.

that would be a foi request to the DWP, not atos surely...

The DWP dont have to set rules for targets, they just pay over the 100 million and say keep us happy perform to contract.

ATOS, who are not subject to FOI requests, can impose whatever targets they want, and the DWP do not have to know about nor would they care (they dont even care or know how atos pays assessors)

apf52

I agree with rogerblack that the HCP can recommend you are unfit due to the fact that to attempt to work would put your or some other persons life or health at risk. This is what one on the non-functional descriptors is used for. As to how often they make that recommendation, it's certainly too few when in reality they should. How often they make the opposite mistake of applying the non-function descriptor where it does not apply I have no idea, but I would guess not so often.

The issue of things you can do 'repeatably, and with a reasonable frequency throughout the day' or 'reliably, repeatedly and the majority of the time' as I have seen Atos describe the criteria this really is a matter of what your answer is to their questions. As an example when it comes to how far you can walk (I only use this because it's simpler to describe but the same applies to everything including mental health issues) if the situation is that you can walk 30 metres and then have to stop because you are out of breath. After a pause to get your breath back you can continue to walk but will get out of breath after only 20 metres and have to stop and you have to stop for quite a while to let your breathing catch up with what you have been doing. If asked 'how far can you walk' the honest answer is either '30 metres, but only once because I can't do it a second time' or '20 metres but I can only do it again one more time'. It doesn't have to take a long time to cover these things as long as you've had a bit of a think about them before the assessment.

melbi_uk

daited wrote: »

how do you get this credit. I'm 64 with no home just a frend who looks after me. get no money and have to ask on the street.

You obviously use your friends Internet then to post. Could you not use his address to put a claim in???

alocin36

These medicals are especially difficult for anyone with mental health problems... if people with terminal illnesses often don't pass, those with depression definitely won't! The whole system is flawed and highly stressful for people who are already ill in whatever way! I myself WANT to work, I just need the DWP to give me some time, let me get as far as having the work-focused interviews and the help to find work which I can cope with, then they will hopefully never see me again!!! Why don't they realise that!??? In answer the the OP, I would say 99.9% of people will be asked to attend medicals with ATOSSERS over and over and over again. The cycle just never ends, and I've heard cases where people with especially severe depression have committed suicide eventually. Yet, still it's allowed to continue...

melbi_uk

alocin36 wrote: »

These medicals are especially difficult for anyone with mental health problems... if people with terminal illnesses often don't pass, those with depression definitely won't! The whole system is flawed and highly stressful for people who are already ill in whatever way! I myself WANT to work, I just need the DWP to give me some time, let me get as far as having the work-focused interviews and the help to find work which I can cope with, then they will hopefully never see me again!!! Why don't they realise that!??? In answer the the OP, I would say 99.9% of people will be asked to attend medicals with ATOSSERS over and over and over again. The cycle just never ends, and I've heard cases where people with especially severe depression have committed suicide eventually. Yet, still it's allowed to continue...

I have my medical a week this coming Monday. I suffer severe depression and anxiety. I have attempted suicide 3 times in the last 12 months :(

This will be my first medical, I've been claiming ESA for 12 months now.

Going off the points list, I should score 15 points on several questions alone.

Will I attempt suicide if failed? Who knows? Who really knows what a person with mental health problems will do under any circumstances that bring change????

My GP says I'm a time bomb waiting to go off at any given time :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Today I'm having a good day :T

Yesterday I never left my bed, washed, ate, drank.....no T.V., no computer, no nothing

Tomorrow? Well who knows!

alocin36

I'm so sorry Melbi_UK, this is exactly what I'm talking about! I have suicidal thoughts and get as far as coming up with ideas but as yet haven't tried. But as you say, who knows?? Every time I fail a medical, win an appeal and then have a form to fill in and the whole circle starts up again, I crack up!! Even if I've been improving in the meantime. I worked from age 16 to 34, even temping in between jobs to avoid claiming benefits, and now I have to I'm being treated like complete crap, like a criminal by the Job Centre and having the money I need to live dangled in front of my face like some sort of bribe - they know they can just stop giving it to you if you don't comply and that thought is the one that keeps me from getting well again!

Be aware that you will fail the medical Melbi and try not to let it get to you too much, you need to appeal and you'll be paid the assessment rate, £64 a week (which I am personally not able to live off!!) then you'll go to a tribunal and no doubt win your appeal... then it'll start again!! I wish I could give you better news... try to stay strong and don't let them win!!!

melbi_uk

alocin36 wrote: »

I'm so sorry Melbi_UK, this is exactly what I'm talking about! I have suicidal thoughts and get as far as coming up with ideas but as yet haven't tried. But as you say, who knows?? Every time I fail a medical, win an appeal and then have a form to fill in and the whole circle starts up again, I crack up!! Even if I've been improving in the meantime. I worked from age 16 to 34, even temping in between jobs to avoid claiming benefits, and now I have to I'm being treated like complete crap, like a criminal by the Job Centre and having the money I need to live dangled in front of my face like some sort of bribe - they know they can just stop giving it to you if you don't comply and that thought is the one that keeps me from getting well again!

Be aware that you will fail the medical Melbi and try not to let it get to you too much, you need to appeal and you'll be paid the assessment rate, £64 a week (which I am personally not able to live off!!) then you'll go to a tribunal and no doubt win your appeal... then it'll start again!! I wish I could give you better news... try to stay strong and don't let them win!!!

I have already prepared myself to fail

I doubt I'll have the stamina to appeal. I know I won't be able to sign on without causing an anxiety attack so I will just become a lost statistic. I'll claim zilch! We will just have to manage on my husbands wages.

Of course I'll continue with my visits to the GP and psychiatrist, I dare say (if I'm lucky enough) end up in contact with the crisis team before I attempt any suicides and just accept that mental health is not acceptable in the UK