can council force sale of Mum's home?

Squoozy

My 82 year old mother was admitted to hospital with dementia. The consultant has said she is not capable of managing her affairs and we do not have power of attorney. He has also said that she foes not have the mental capacity to grant us power of attorney. They have now said that she will need to go into a home that cares for people with dementia and that her home will have to be sold.

My question is, how can they sell the home when no-one currently has power of attorney, given that applications to the court of pretection take many months? Having read up about all of this we would ideally have liked to ask for deferred payments but presumably this will not be possible?

Although my mum is very confused and has a terrible memory she keeps asking to go home and repeating that she does not want to go into a home. All of this, after she has worked all of her life for her house seems totally unfair and we appear to have absolutely no control over events. I cannot care for her because I work full time and the hospital has said she needs full time care. I asked about continuing healthcare funding and they said her needs are 'social' rather than medical.

Any advice woyld be greatly appreciated.

soolin

I can't be of much help but I wanted to post as I had the exact same situation 3 1/2 years ago.

I did have a power of attorney, the old sort though and I think to be frank that the authorities assisted me in using that to sell Dad's house as the psychiatric hospital confirmed that Dad had some lucid moments and was able to give permission for me to act. However strictly speaking I should not have been able to sell with that POA but I htink they just wanted him out and realised that registering with the courts to manage Dad's affairs would have seen dad stay in hospital for many more months which was not ideal.

However, what I was told was that if hospital had not agreed that Dad was able to exercise the ability to allow me to act then they would have moved dad into a home anyway and the court (can't remember what it was called) would be asked to take over the management of dad's affairs in order to allow the house to be sold by the next of kin. They mentioned the fact that the local authority would have paid the fees for me until such time as the house was sold and then expect that to be reimbursed by the eventual sale of the house.

They did however say (and this might have been just to frighten me into co operating with them as my relationship with the Local authority was not good!) that if I did not act on the instruction to sell the house in a timely fashion that they exercised the right to choose the home my Dad was placed in rather than allow me to make that decision wholly on my own. As the LA I was dealing with had soem truly awful homes I did co operate with them as I wanted to move dad into another LA area to be close to me.

Dad did get the full DLA though and DWP were very helpful with getting that pushed through very quickly for me. He was never entitled to any nursing element though until a month ago when he deteriorated further and had to be moved from a care home to a nursing home, and we were awarded £108 a week (which didn't even cover the difference in costs between the care home and nursing home).

3 days after coming home from hospital to the new home though dad died (Tuesday this week) which was a merciful release for him.

One last tip, choose the home carefully, do not go just on star ratings or recommendations, go by what you feel comfortable in. The care home I choose was a little run down, it had no smart activity centre, no fancy menus, yet Dad was very very happy there and they treated all the residents as though they were their own parents. I saw some top of the range posh ones wher eit was treated so much as a business that the residents were almost overlooked in the need to gain more stars or a better write up. Also do not be afraid to ask about fees, do not be put off by them wanting to discuss this later, insist you get a breakdown of what you would be paying ..and view each and every home you consider without warning them of your vist before hand, and go at lunchtime and see what they are eating and if they are being assisted with feeding.

Fees here can range from about £550 a week up to well over £1000 a week and the costs do not necessarily indicate how good a home is. I used this website as a start to find local homes:

http://www.cqc.org.uk/registeredservicesdirectory/rsquicksearch.asp

monkeyspanner

I see no reason why deferred payments are not appropriate in these circumstances. As you say no one at present can actually sell the house as no one is empowered to act for your mum. Deferred payment would however only apply if your mum has less than the minimum savings limit of about £23000, if she has over that amount she would have to be self-funding unless awarded CHC funding. There is also the 12 week disregard period but I do not think that is appropriate as the house cannot be marketed for sale. You should ask social services about deferred payments.

As regards CHC funding have they just said it isn't available or has a proper checklist or assessment been carried out? The hospital is obliged under CRAG rules to carry out at least an initial CHC checklist prior to discharge. As your mum cannot look after herself because she has a degenerative medical condition i.e. dementia I would argue that her needs are primarily medical. Some NHS areas are trying to insist that dementia falls into the domestic area of care but I believe there are strong grounds to challenge this assertion. If your mum had a major stroke or series of TIAs leaving her with similar problems it would be treated as medical rather than domestic. There does seem to be this assumption that dementia is a natural consequence of old age and therefore domestic but if that were the case all elderly people would exhibit severe dementia and we know that is not the case.

Also as your mum is lucid enough to express her wishes I would be interested to hear how the hospital and social services will force her into accepting a care home placement except by bullying her into submission.

soolin

Having been through this before I would also add that like monkeyspanner says there are a lot of things they cannot do and it can be a minefield working through what is legal and what is merely advisable.

The other things the family need to sit down and consider is what is best for their mother, if she cannot manage at home on her own then finding a suitable alternative must be a priority. In my dads case no number of people or carers popping in daily could have made it safe for him to be left alone, he was not able to function and he deteriorated on a month by month basis and he would have wandered off the moment no one watched him.

Leaving him in a hospital was also not ideal, no one should have to spend the day in a small cubicle with no access to a family life or their own bits and bobs. I therefore had to find a home for him.

As for keeping the house even if the authorities had merely paid the bills pending the eventual sale I could not have afforded to pay all the bills to maintain and keep the house and in my case the house was in a very bad state and would have started to lose a great deal of value if left un occupied for much longer. As it was I very very lucky as I sold it to a neighbour at over market price as he needed it to expand for his growing family, it was also sold before I started to incur silly bills with insurance on an unoccupied house . I just had to pay gas and electricity for a while and I never got the stage that council tax kicked in again.

It is a horrible situation and one that no child should have to face, and my thoughts go out to the OP.

Squoozy

Thank you so much sooling and Moneyspanker for your posts. I will read through them carefully and see where I go from here.

And soolin, I am so sorry to hear about your Dad x

monkeyspanner

Soolin as you say each of us in this situation must find the best option for our relatives. My regret is that due to the intransigence and deliberate negligence of NHS and Social Services our attention was drawn away from my MIL who needed most of all our undivided attention and support.

soolin

monkeyspanner wrote: »

Soolin as you say each of us in this situation must find the best option for our relatives. My regret is that due to the intransigence and deliberate negligence of NHS and Social Services our attention was drawn away from my MIL who needed most of all our undivided attention and support.

I couldn't agree with you more. Just as a parent needs our support we get faced with having to do battle (and I really did find it a battle) with the authorities. When dad first had the big stroke that robbed him of his mind I spent as much time on the phone with people arguing about his care, or in face to face meetings than I did sitting quietly with Dad re assuring him.

Then in his last month things got so bad he ended up on an at risk register due to NHS care and again I spent time arguing, phoning pleading for help . I cannot forgive them for that.

Help and advice should be available for people in this instance, instead in many cases there seems to be a bullying tendency towards the next of kin because elderly people with dementia are seen as a nuisance. I am a strong person, I know my way round the NHS systems but I could not battle with them as I also needed to be there for my Dad.

I'm a little bitter and upset today..can you tell

cavework

OP .. I think you can fast track an application to the Court of Protection in this case..
You can also apply to the DWP to become an Appointee on your Mums behalf

Willman_Rodders

cavework wrote: »

OP .. I think you can fast track an application to the Court of Protection in this case..

And so too can Social Services, I understand. In my work I have come across a couple of cases where the statutory bodies have been pretty quick off the mark to obtain the powers they need to make the decisions ... to the exclusion of the family.

The only advice I can give ... is you need to move quickly to explore your options.

littlemissbossy

Hi Soolin

Just wanted to say I'm so sorry for your loss and thanks for your really helpful posts at this awful time.

cavework

Willman_Rodders wrote: »

And so too can Social Services, I understand. In my work I have come across a couple of cases where the statutory bodies have been pretty quick off the mark to obtain the powers they need to make the decisions ... to the exclusion of the family.

The only advice I can give ... is you need to move quickly to explore your options.

No I disagree

When you apply for a Court of Protection Order all family who have an interest have to be declaired.. ie wife , siblings and notified of the application
I fail to see how the Adult Services could get this past a judge without fullfilling this requirement.