Forced to buy a second ticket

Kua

pmm1981 wrote: »

An excess should have been the course of action here.

To the OP, why oh why are you buying open return a) in advance, they are the same price on the day from the station BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY
WHY ARE YOU USING THE TRAINLINE, YOU HAVE PAID FEES TO BUY TICKETS FROM THEM MEANING YOU PAID MORE THAN YOU WOULD ON THE DAY.

DO NOT USE THE TRAINLINE TO BUY TICKETS AS THEY CHARGE FEES

To add, did anyone realise an agent/TOC gets around 9% of the fee in commission and trainline still charge fees!!!

Didn't realise that. The price for an open return on nationrail.co.uk was about £90 and I figured that would be the price at the station.

yorkie2

Right, now we know you held an Off Peak Return (SVR), not an Anytime Return (SOR) formerly Standard Open Return. It's not an "Open" ticket in the true sense of the word and the meaning under BR, but it is "open" in Thetrainline's definition of not being tied to a specific train.

However we do not know what train you caught from Euston, therefore it is impossible to determine the correct fare so two ifs remain!

I can say the excess would be 25p if you departed Euston at or after 0905, however if you departed Euston before that time the excess would be very expensive; indeed higher than the price you paid, in which case a single ticket to a point where you would be allowed to use your original ticket may have been issued as it was cheaper.

But if you departed Euston at or after 0905 then you have a totally legitimate grounds for complaint on the basis that you were not given the correct excess of 25p. Note that the 25p would cover you for transfer by London Underground too!

(Note: I have quoted 25p; the excess would be 22 and a half pence but fares are rounded up or down to the nearest 5p. I am unsure in this case if it is rounded up or down so I have quoted the higher price, not that 5p makes much difference!)



Anyway for the avoidance of doubt the rules are:

(These quotes are from guidelines given to ticket inspectors)

East_Coast_Revenue_Protection_Handbook wrote:

C7.1.1. Travel by a Different Route - with a higher fare

Return Tickets - Travel in one direction

Ticket held:
Standard Anytime / Day Return
First Anytime / Day Return
Off-peak Return / Day Return
Super Off-Peak Return
Weekender Return

Action:
Charge half the difference between the fare paid
and the appropriate Return fare for the journey
being made. If no through fare, charge the
appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey
not covered by the ticket held.

Also another TOC provided this:

Travel by a different route with a higher fare– Opportunity to buy before boarding

Return Tickets (Standard & First Class)
a) Travel in One Direction

Charge HALF the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare for the journey being made
If no through fare, charge the appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey not covered by the ticket

Notes:
Railcard discounts are allowed provided the original ticket is discounted;

Reference to 'appropriate fare' means the cheapest Single or Return fare available for immediate travel on the chosen service.

Important notes (myth-busters!)
- The excess is the same regardless of whether there was or was not opportunity to buy before boarding, there is NO penalty for buying on board
- Railcard discounts ARE allowed (providing original ticket has a Railcard discount)
- The full difference is not charged. HALF the difference is charged
- The excess is to the APPROPRIATE fare, that means (Super) Off Peak (Day) where valid. It does NOT mean the excess has to be to an Anytime, even if the original ticket is an anytime (there is an example in The Manual of a Not London Anytime ticket being excessed to a Super Off Peak valid via London)

THE ABOVE APPLIES SPECIFICALLY TO CHANGE OF ROUTE EXCESS ONLY. Other excess fares may be calculated differently and different rules apply.

yorkie2

Kua wrote: »

The ticket I bought instead I bought at a self-service machine after the Virgin dude told me there was no chance of me taking the route specified on my ticket at that time. It was from London Terminals to Lancaster.

Right, so you were prevented from travelling at the barrier. The ticket you bought is an Off Peak Return (SVR) priced at £51.15 (with Railcard discount) that means you must have been travelling at or after 0905 and therefore your ticket was valid on payment of a 25p excess.

I suggest you write to Virgin requesting a full refund of the £50.50 single or £51.15 return ticket, and offering to pay the 25p excess to make your original ticket valid. (You could try asking for a £10 admin fee for your time!)

If you send any tickets, take photocopies in case they get lost.

If no satisfactory response is received, write to Passenger Focus and consider if you wish to contact Watchdog (they will be interested I reckon as they published a story when the customer was treated correctly; in this case the customer has been massively overcharged).

I hope you got the name of the ticket inspector?

Kua

yorkie2 wrote: »

Right, now we know you held an Off Peak Return (SVR), not an Anytime Return (SOR) formerly Standard Open Return. It's not an "Open" ticket in the true sense of the word and the meaning under BR, but it is "open" in Thetrainline's definition of not being tied to a specific train.

However we do not know what train you caught from Euston, therefore it is impossible to determine the correct fare so two ifs remain!

I can say the excess would be 25p if you departed Euston at or after 0905, however if you departed Euston before that time the excess would be very expensive; indeed higher than the price you paid, in which case a single ticket to a point where you would be allowed to use your original ticket may have been issued as it was cheaper.

But if you departed Euston at or after 0905 then you have a totally legitimate grounds for complaint on the basis that you were not given the correct excess of 25p. Note that the 25p would cover you for transfer by London Underground too!

(Note: I have quoted 25p; the excess would be 22 and a half pence but fares are rounded up or down to the nearest 5p. I am unsure in this case if it is rounded up or down so I have quoted the higher price, not that 5p makes much difference!)



Anyway for the avoidance of doubt the rules are:

(These quotes are from guidelines given to ticket inspectors)



Also another TOC provided this:

Important notes (myth-busters!)
- The excess is the same regardless of whether there was or was not opportunity to buy before boarding, there is NO penalty for buying on board
- Railcard discounts ARE allowed (providing original ticket has a Railcard discount)
- The full difference is not charged. HALF the difference is charged
- The excess is to the APPROPRIATE fare, that means (Super) Off Peak (Day) where valid. It does NOT mean the excess has to be to an Anytime, even if the original ticket is an anytime (there is an example in The Manual of a Not London Anytime ticket being excessed to a Super Off Peak valid via London)

THE ABOVE APPLIES SPECIFICALLY TO CHANGE OF ROUTE EXCESS ONLY. Other excess fares may be calculated differently and different rules apply.

If it helps my ticket cost £51.15 and I caught the 19.30 from Euston direct to Lancaster. I decided to buy another open return because it was virtually the same price as a single.

Does this mean I have a cause for complaint? If I do I have to confess I don't understand on what grounds!

EDIT: Oops sorry I see you've already answered this.

yorkie2

Yes I would of course buy a return on that basis too.

You have grounds for complaint on the basis that ticket inspectors are required to give you an excess fare costing 25 pence for the specific circumstance that you were in. However the inspector failed to do so and gave you incorrect advice instructing you to buy a new ticket.

The quotes I provided above are instructions issued to ticket inspectors, as you can see this inspector failed to adhere to the instructions.

I suspect the guard would have known the rules; most guards do, and would have charged you 25p. However barrier staff are trained to much lower standards and are generally less knowledgeable. This is not the first time I have heard of Euston barrier staff incorrectly overcharging customers and I fear it will not be the last.

Did you get his name? If so, suitable advice can be given directly to that person. If not, still complain anyway and Virgin will hopefully issue a memo to all their barrier staff.

I am sorry you received dodgy advice here too, the rules are complicated and I would suggest queries like this are directed to a specialist rail ticketing forum where there are experienced travellers and guards alike who can give suitable advice (see post by Livingthedream)

Livingthedream

yorkie2 wrote: »

You have grounds for complaint on the basis that ticket inspectors are required to give you an excess fare costing 25 pence for the specific circumstance that you were in. However the inspector failed to do so and gave you incorrect advice instructing you to buy a new ticket.

Thank you for the closure yorkie, only one thing to add, here's the freepost address for your complaint letter;

Customer Relations
Virgin Trains
FREEPOST BM 6613
PO BOX 713
Birmingham
B5 4HH

Oh, didn't know that you could use your railcard for an onboard excess, everyday is a school day as they say :beer: which is why my maths was carp and I got £16.50

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Thanks for clearing that and my misunderstanding on it up Yorkie.

yorkie2

No problem

Actually I made a mistake; I was looking at the Off Peak fares the wrong way round! The Route +London is actually CHEAPER than the Route Banbury, so the excess is not 25p, it's actually zero!

As for using your railcard for onboard excesses, that is indeed correct that you can use Railcards however NOT in the case of over-riding if caught after the last station at which you are valid (in other words you must obtain the excess before reaching your original destination!), and also NOT in the case of breaking and resuming a journey when the conditions prohibit it. In both these cases railcard holders do not get discounts unless there was no opportunity to buy before boarding, in which case they do.

But, like with change of route, for travelling on a restricted (ie Super Off Peak) ticket at a time when not valid (e.g. Off Peak required) then the excess is just to the appropriate ticket and with railcard discounts, even if there was opportunity to buy before boarding.

Kua

yorkie2 wrote: »

Yes I would of course buy a return on that basis too.

You have grounds for complaint on the basis that ticket inspectors are required to give you an excess fare costing 25 pence for the specific circumstance that you were in. However the inspector failed to do so and gave you incorrect advice instructing you to buy a new ticket.

The quotes I provided above are instructions issued to ticket inspectors, as you can see this inspector failed to adhere to the instructions.

I suspect the guard would have known the rules; most guards do, and would have charged you 25p. However barrier staff are trained to much lower standards and are generally less knowledgeable. This is not the first time I have heard of Euston barrier staff incorrectly overcharging customers and I fear it will not be the last.

Did you get his name? If so, suitable advice can be given directly to that person. If not, still complain anyway and Virgin will hopefully issue a memo to all their barrier staff.

I am sorry you received dodgy advice here too, the rules are complicated and I would suggest queries like this are directed to a specialist rail ticketing forum where there are experienced travellers and guards alike who can give suitable advice (see post by Livingthedream)

In fact three members of staff told me the same thing. Two at the ticket checkpoint and one staffing the Virgin area up in the central part of the station.

Thanks so much for the advice. I'll write a letter and will try to remember to let you know how I get on.

EDIT: I've just thought of a potential spanner in the works. I have the replacement tickets I had to buy but I had to send the original away in order to get reimbursed (I went down for an interview - in which I was successful btw ). Do you think they'll take the booking confirmation from thetrainline.com as proof? Also re. the tube ticket I had to buy --- I'm guessing there's not a lot I can do about that.

Livingthedream

Kua wrote: »

EDIT: I've just thought of a potential spanner in the works. I have the replacement tickets I had to buy but I had to send the original away in order to get reimbursed (I went down for an interview - in which I was successful btw ). Do you think they'll take the booking confirmation from thetrainline.com as proof? Also re. the tube ticket I had to buy --- I'm guessing there's not a lot I can do about that.

That could be a spanner in the works, my advice is phone whoever you sent the tickets to for reimbursement and tell them what happened and ask very politely if you could have the tickets back, you don't want to give Virgin trains any excuse to wriggle off the hook.

As to your tube ticket, put it in your letter of complaint to Virgin and ask for them to refund it, I would also be cheeky and ask for a 'goodwill gesture' for the hassle they caused you as well.

One last thing they will try and pay you off with travel vouchers, if this is not exceptable then ask for a cheque.

Congrates on passing your interview :beer: