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Hands up all accountants -vent
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Setting deadlines for clients and financially rewarding them* for doing so works and then, as Pennywise says, sifting out as much of the dross as possible works wonders. Its a nervy thing to do first time you ever do it but quite liberating. I found suggesting they try these local accountants who may be able to offer a more appropriate service worked wonders. For those who didn't take the hint a 50% suggested fee increase before starting work next time also worked wonders
Have lost a couple along the way but getting new clients really isn't that hard, and when they are new they are much easier to "train up" to get them to do things as you you request that makes your life easier
* By not charging them extra that is!0 -
As for just 30 minutes to do a return, you must be joking - it takes longer than that just to have a phone call and set up the file, and that's before the work starts - more like 2-4 hours for anything other than a simple employee/pensioner!
I don't really disagree with anything you have said, as it is all very specific to yourself, except for the above comment.
A small sole trader, you do their accounts every year, would have a file set up ready to go. It is nothing more complicated than basically completing the working papers on say excel, data inputting information into your accounting package, then printing off the accounts and tax returns. You wouldn't even need to speak to the client, except to maybe ring and say your accounts and tax return is done.
I have done both a set of accounts and a tax return in way less than an hour, as well as having the full working papers completed and filed on the clients file.
Everything is more or less computer based now, if it isn't, then that is the reason a job I could do in 30 mins, is taking you 2-4 hours to hand write.
Please don't take this as me trying to be argumentative or insulting either, because I am not.
It also appears to me, that maybe you view yourself slightly indispensable to your clients. To be fair, I don't know you or your clients, and as I said you seem to be very specific in your client base, which seems to work for you, but may not work for others.
You seem to be in a privileged position that you can actually turn work down at the moment, when most business are struggling.
A lot of local accountants are also feeling the heat, as when there clients business fail, that is one less client for the firm, with really not a lot coming through at the moment to replace them.
So even the clients who are a pain, are still good clients to have if they pay the bill.
It is all well and good having a select few clients that you are happy to work for, but what happens when these clients leave to go the person who can do the accounts faster and cheaper than you, or what happens when these clients close their businesses?
I don't really want to get into a debate about any of this, just trying to highlight the other side of the actual topic.
If accountants have time to go on the internet complaining that they don't have time to do clients tax returns, it is quite ironic to say the least.0 -
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A lot of local accountants are also feeling the heat, as when there clients business fail, that is one less client for the firm, with really not a lot coming through at the moment to replace them.
So even the clients who are a pain, are still good clients to have if they pay the bill.
It is all well and good having a select few clients that you are happy to work for, but what happens when these clients leave to go the person who can do the accounts faster and cheaper than you, or what happens when these clients close their businesses?
Yes its tough for everyone that is for sure, but many accountants will not be running their firms "on the breadline" so do have room to move on this. if they don't, well that is another topic I guess
However many accountants are afraid to deal with clients in a manner that sets them up right for the future.
Clients who turn up a week or even days before the deadline with a pile of c**p in a bag are never going to be "good" clients in any sort of way IMO. They will always be the ones who moan about the fee, don't check anything and moan if there is an issue, tell you how much tax they think they "should" be paying (all from a pile of c**p in a bag don't forget!)I don't really want to get into a debate about any of this, just trying to highlight the other side of the actual topic.
Sorry but you have posted several times on the thread on a public forum, you kind of do want a debate don't you!If accountants have time to go on the internet complaining that they don't have time to do clients tax returns, it is quite ironic to say the least
Those accountants may be managing their time in different ways of course, but as a fan of irony, I do see the funny side of that yes!0 -
Oh dear - I guess all those tax examinations I did all those years ago were a waste of time!0
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Everything is more or less computer based now, if it isn't, then that is the reason a job I could do in 30 mins, is taking you 2-4 hours to hand write.
More assumptions!. I'm actually fully computerised and barely touch a pen.
I agree the basic number crunching can be quick, but I spend a lot of time actually looking at what the numbers don't say - i.e. things the client may have forgotten to include, properly checking for add-backs, properly checking cut off, actually talking to the client at length to make sure they understand the accounts and tax return and telling them of any opportunities they may be missing or generally anything they could do better. I spend at least an hour either meeting the client or talking to them over the phone to make absolutely sure that the finished result is "right" - not just whether it agrees with whatever records have been provided.
When I take on a new clients, it's on the basis of giving them a better service, not giving them a cheaper or quicker service. Most actually pay me more than they did to their previous accountant because they value the better service.
It's nothing to do with being in a fortunate position. It's taken years of hard slog to get a quality practice with quality clients. I'm more than happy to let clients go to cheaper alternatives if they want a cheaper service - sometimes I even suggest it to them!! I'd rather have 100 clients paying £500 p.a. than 200 clients paying £250 p.a. - do the maths and see which method causes more aggro, stress and grief for you! It's a bumpy road to get to a quality client base, but it's worth the pain and the only way to get there is to avoid the dross that will sap your time, energy and enthusiasm leaving you refreshed and ready to give yourself fully to the clients you want.0 -
More assumptions!. I'm actually fully computerised and barely touch a pen.
I didn't assume anything. Just offered one idea as to why I thought it could take so long to do a small job.
Perhaps we are just not comparing like with like here.I agree the basic number crunching can be quick, but I spend a lot of time actually looking at what the numbers don't say - i.e. things the client may have forgotten to include, properly checking for add-backs, properly checking cut off, actually talking to the client at length to make sure they understand the accounts and tax return and telling them of any opportunities they may be missing or generally anything they could do better. I spend at least an hour either meeting the client or talking to them over the phone to make absolutely sure that the finished result is "right" - not just whether it agrees with whatever records have been provided.
If your clients are as brilliant as you make them out to be, I cannot understand why it would take you so long to go do the work and go through everything with them.When I take on a new clients, it's on the basis of giving them a better service, not giving them a cheaper or quicker service. Most actually pay me more than they did to their previous accountant because they value the better service.
Your level of service is specific to your business.
Just because you take longer and charge more, two things which most clients would see as a negative, does not mean that you can say you offer a better service than anyone else.
That is just your opinion. Or your assumption.
It's nothing to do with being in a fortunate position. It's taken years of hard slog to get a quality practice with quality clients. I'm more than happy to let clients go to cheaper alternatives if they want a cheaper service - sometimes I even suggest it to them!! I'd rather have 100 clients paying £500 p.a. than 200 clients paying £250 p.a. - do the maths and see which method causes more aggro, stress and grief for you!
Your maths have no relevance to the level of causes of aggro, stress and grief.
A more interesting factor that you totally missed is the time taken:
If your 100 clients take you 4 hours each = 400 hours
The 200 clients take 1 hour each = 200 hoursIt's a bumpy road to get to a quality client base, but it's worth the pain and the only way to get there is to avoid the dross that will sap your time, energy and enthusiasm leaving you refreshed and ready to give yourself fully to the clients you want.
That is a very high regard for your own self-importance.
Your an accountant, clients want you to do their accounts and tax returns.
You are not super "accountant" man / super "accountant" woman. :rotfl:0 -
If your clients are as brilliant as you make them out to be, I cannot understand why it would take you so long to go do the work and go through everything with them.
Just because you take longer and charge more, two things which most clients would see as a negative, does not mean that you can say you offer a better service than anyone else.
Your maths have no relevance to the level of causes of aggro, stress and grief.
That is a very high regard for your own self-importance.
Your an accountant, clients want you to do their accounts and tax returns.
You are not super "accountant" man / super "accountant" woman. :rotfl:
Oh dear, where do we start?
I spend my time talking to the client, getting to know them, getting to understand them, then I can really help them grow their business, improve margins and reduce tax. That means meeting them regularly as well as pro-actively phoning or emailing them. It means recognising their voice when they phone. It means remembering what they've told me previously. All intangibles that you can't put a price on.
Client's don't see me spending time with them as a negative thing and are willing to pay for a service that they can see brings benefits to them.
None of this makes me super-human. I don't have any self importance. I don't specialise and I don't claim to be technically better than any other accountant, because I'm not. All I do is offer a more personalised service. Any business could do the same. I treat my clients with the utmost respect and they do likewise.
I have a plumber who operates the same way - I know I can get a lot cheaper, but he always turns up on time, I never have to get him back when things he's done aren't right, he's honest enough to say when a job's not right for him, he never advertises in the papers and doesn't have a website as he's kept busy by his existing client base and referrals from them. He's nothing special, he just does the job right and does what customers want from him. In the cold spell, I had a burst pipe, he came round straightaway and fixed it - his phone rang a couple of times from people with "emergencies" and he told them he was too busy - he told me that he was only accepting call outs from existing customers because he didn't want to let them down if they called him whilst he was busy with new customers who only wanted him because they were desperate. Sounds familiar to the late-comers for tax returns??
An hour spent meeting the client is far more rewarding all round than an hour spent in an office sat in front of a spreadsheet doing number-crunching. Clients can see the time spent and can see how it benefits them.
Clients don't want a set of annual accounts and a tax return at all. They must have them for legal compliance, but they don't really want them. It's nothing but a necessary evil for them and an overhead to pay. If clients only see it that way, the the accountant has already lost the battle and will only keep the client until someone cheaper/quicker comes along. Luckily a lot of clients see the bigger picture and see the benefits that working with an accountant can bring - once you've won that battle, you've a client for life who won't be price sensitive and you won't be scared of losing them every time another accountant opens up nearby!0 -
Oh dear, where do we start?
My sentiments exactly, it just appears that you are making more stuff up as you go along now, just for arguments sake.I spend my time talking to the client, getting to know them, getting to understand them, then I can really help them grow their business, improve margins and reduce tax. That means meeting them regularly as well as pro-actively phoning or emailing them. It means recognising their voice when they phone. It means remembering what they've told me previously. All intangibles that you can't put a price on.
As I said before are we comparing like with like here?
I know the majority of small sole traders would not be able to give up half a day at work to have a day out at the accountants! They want what they need, and to be in and out asap.
Is all the extra you are talking about really going to matter to say a sub contractor for example, whose accounts you do every year?
A subbie may have 12 vouchers, say a van, and a few receipts for phone, petrol etc.
You could get the books & records, have all working papers done, posted up, accounts & tax return printed off, within an hour no problem. Call the client, have a quick chat or ask them to come in for a quick meeting. Discuss any possible changes that have occurred in the year, which is already several points to cover on my firms working papers I might add.
Basically covering everything you have said like it is some sort of special extra service, but as standard.
Perhaps you don't have any small clients like this, or you are creating work to make them "bigger jobs" than they are?!Client's don't see me spending time with them as a negative thing and are willing to pay for a service that they can see brings benefits to them.
These are all just specific points, relevant to your business.
Your just taking this way off topic now.None of this makes me super-human. I don't have any self importance. I don't specialise and I don't claim to be technically better than any other accountant, because I'm not. All I do is offer a more personalised service. Any business could do the same. I treat my clients with the utmost respect and they do likewise.
You said you offer a better service, but everything you offer just seems to be standard to me?
Except it takes you longer and costs more.I have a plumber who operates the same way - I know I can get a lot cheaper, but he always turns up on time, I never have to get him back when things he's done aren't right, he's honest enough to say when a job's not right for him, he never advertises in the papers and doesn't have a website as he's kept busy by his existing client base and referrals from them. He's nothing special, he just does the job right and does what customers want from him. In the cold spell, I had a burst pipe, he came round straightaway and fixed it - his phone rang a couple of times from people with "emergencies" and he told them he was too busy - he told me that he was only accepting call outs from existing customers because he didn't want to let them down if they called him whilst he was busy with new customers who only wanted him because they were desperate. Sounds familiar to the late-comers for tax returns??
Yes, really believable. I could just see a plumber sitting at home at the busiest time of the year, refusing new work, just in case that boiler he fitted 4 years ago for one of his "loyal" customers breaks down.
Also if he had so many calls about problems with his work from "loyal" customers, it does call his work into question!An hour spent meeting the client is far more rewarding all round than an hour spent in an office sat in front of a spreadsheet doing number-crunching. Clients can see the time spent and can see how it benefits them.
They will also see it reflected in their bill!Clients don't want a set of annual accounts and a tax return at all. They must have them for legal compliance, but they don't really want them.
Yes they don't care how there business is operating, or if they have made a profit / loss.It's nothing but a necessary evil for them and an overhead to pay. If clients only see it that way, the the accountant has already lost the battle and will only keep the client until someone cheaper/quicker comes along.
If your client is working on a business that wants to make the best profits, they will want the lowest overheads surely.
If they can pay £500 for an accountant, or £250 for an accountant, with the same results, who will they choose?Luckily a lot of clients see the bigger picture and see the benefits that working with an accountant can bring - once you've won that battle, you've a client for life who won't be price sensitive and you won't be scared of losing them every time another accountant opens up nearby!
If it is half decent account, they should offer everything you have listed as your special extras as standard.
You must either be in area with some really poor accountancy practices, or you just don't know anything about your competitors.
I have stated my opinion on the original subject. I have no interest in you or how good you think your accountancy firm is, so please stop going on about all these not so special services you offer. Please.
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On balance I am with Pennywise here. The clients who really motivate me want and need a lot more than a tax return and some accounts. I have one client I sincerely hope I'll have for less than 2 years, during which time their sales will have exploded from £80k to several million and it will be time to move on. If all I do for them in the next year is 4 VAT returns and a set of annual accounts then that is failure, though no doubt their previous accountants would have been well pleased. I have meetings in place with various Angels including the regional Dragons Den people, they have what I believe is a world-beating product.
Even on a "bread and butter" job I think you can find some sort of suggestion for the future 80% plus of the time.Hideous Muddles from Right Charlies0 -
On balance I am with Pennywise here. The clients who really motivate me want and need a lot more than a tax return and some accounts.
This is why I said I didn't think we were comparing like with like.
Even so, if you think it makes business sense to be turning profitable jobs down, just because you can't be bothered with that particular client, then that is upto you.I have one client I sincerely hope I'll have for less than 2 years, during which time their sales will have exploded from £80k to several million and it will be time to move on. If all I do for them in the next year is 4 VAT returns and a set of annual accounts then that is failure, though no doubt their previous accountants would have been well pleased.
Why would you hope you have this client for less than two years?
You are the accountant, at the end of the day you are being paid to do those VAT returns, that set of accounts.
What is the problem with doing a job like this? If you are making a profit and doing it in good time, I cannot see the sense in turning away work.I have meetings in place with various Angels including the regional Dragons Den people, they have what I believe is a world-beating product.
Do you mean the client set up these meetings looking for the investment, and ask you to go along as the accountant to explain the facts and figures?
I wonder if the client knows what you think of them, and that you want rid within two years. Not exactly the sort of people you would want supporting you in a meeting when you are looking for potential investors!Even on a "bread and butter" job I think you can find some sort of suggestion for the future 80% plus of the time.
Yes, but I wouldn't harp on about this as some sort of extra special service, I thought this was just as standard in the client meeting.
Advising the client on what they could be doing to save tax etc. It does take a rocket scientist or hours on end to do this, just an accountant and a quick meeting.
What was this thread about again?
Was it about people coming on here to let us all know how great their own accountancy firms are? 0
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