£3000 Orange bill. please help.

ShugMonkey

Better than where I live then!

Jon_01

Well, their building a 3g network from scratch rather than trying graft it onto a g2 that was itself an upgrade from an analog . . .

marleyboy

MissKeith wrote: »

Actually, this is damn near impossible with a Blackberry.

Thats not what I hear........

Some highlights from O'Connor's paper, which was seen by eWEEK Security Watch:

The BlackBerry's "modest" security framework it is still susceptible to multiple attacks, including being used as a backdoor, allowing confidential data to be exported.

The BlackBerry can be used as a proxy for attackers. Some of these attacks require applications to be digitally signed, while others can be conducted without such a signature.

While code-signing provides a potential hurdle for malicious code writers, signatures can still be obtained with relative ease and anonymity. Code-signing keys can be bought for $100 -- completely anonymously via the use of prepaid credit-cards. This completely undermines the ability to determine the creators of a signed application, and perhaps track them down in the case of malicious code being signed.

Sending and receiving SMS (text messages) is very simple on the BlackBerry, and doesn't require the code to be signed. Users will receive a prompt the first time the program attempts to send a message, asking if they wish to allow network access, but there are no further warnings on subsequent runs of the application. The same warning is used for an application making a HTTP connection or trying to send an SMS, meaning that a user could be easily fooled into sending very expensive premium SMS messages by an application that purports to connect to the Internet for legitimate purposes.

Premium rate "dialer" scams can be extended from the PC to BlackBerry devices, running up huge bills in the process. The application would work as follows:

User downloads and runs an application (e.g. a game with "post my high-score online" option).
If the code is unsigned, the user receives a prompt "Allow Network Access?"
User agrees (thinking he or she is posting high scores on a Web site)
The application proceeds to send a premium-rate SMS message in the background unbeknownst to the users until they receive their phone bills.

BlackBerry devices are susceptible to SMS interception attacks that allow hackers to send SMS via the infected device and receive the access code giving them free Wi-Fi access, while the victim is billed instead. Other SMS billable services include voting polls, parking and even using vending machines. Note that if the application is signed, the user will not even be prompted.

http://securitywatch.eweek.com/exploits_and_attacks/cracking_the_blackberry_with_a_100_key.html

However NOT having the Blackberry I cannot be 100%, I have the HTC Smartphone, and it came with plenty of warnings about leaving back doors open for attack (Wifi n Bluetooth in particular). I therefore chose to install extra security features to limit any access from external sources.

Fifer

Guys_Dad wrote: »

1. If customer asks for a particular article, then they are not being mis-sold if they are sold what they asked for.

But according to the OP, she didn't.

Olesya wrote: »

She only got blackberry because they suggested she gets it at the shop when she was renewing her contract.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

3. If data charges are from a non-Orange source initially, then Orange can hardly be held to blame.

If she didn't want, need or ask for a phone which uses data services as a default and didn't realise that's what she was sold, I disagree.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

If they had cut her off overseas for over use and she had, for example, been trapped in a lift or building and could not make a call, then there would have been all hell to pay.

I suspect most people in those circumstaces would call the emergency services rather than googling or emailing. Data can be disabled without disabling phone services.

Guys_Dad wrote: »

4. It's not the network or shop's fault if someone doesn't take time to understand the device they are using.

So if a customer wants a phone and is sold something far more complex and expensive to use as being suitable for her needs and without the complexity and expense being explained, you don't think that's miss-selling? Again, we disagree.

baza52

Fifer wrote: »

But according to the OP, she didn't.


If she didn't want, need or ask for a phone which uses data services as a default and didn't realise that's what she was sold, I disagree.

I suspect most people in those circumstaces would call the emergency services rather than googling or emailing. Data can be disabled without disabling phone services.

So if a customer wants a phone and is sold something far more complex and expensive to use as being suitable for her needs and without the complexity and expense being explained, you don't think that's miss-selling? Again, we disagree.

How is it mis selling? She went in for a new phone and thats what she came out of the shop with.
If the phone is too complex then its down to the user to educate themself how it works.
Had they given her a basic phone no doubt the OP would be here saying the shop had ripped her off.

lizzywig

When I went to Las Vegas I took my Blackberry, I didn't have an email account set up as just before I went it kept getting hacked. I didn't have any problems and I had my phone with me the whole time.

I would suggest acting by putting this in writing. I had my credit card copied 3 years ago and I spent 4 months talking to about 50 idiotic call centre staff, it wasn't until I put it in writing that they managed to sort it out. I would send a letter to customer services, the complaints and billing department (if there is one), make sure you cc them on each letter and keep a copy, then send the recorded delivery so you have proof of sending them. Then call up and inform them that you have sent the letters and you would like to proceed by writing and you want them to freeze the phone account so that no further charges are made, I would also suggest that you tell them that the bill won't be paid until this is sorted out. You should carefully list your points and outline the various items that people say above. Also highlight the fact that Orange told her that her phone bill was frozen at £1300, she then voiced her concerns but when she returned it is now evident that her bill went up to £3000 - very poor customer service on Orange's part. You should explain that you believe her phone was hacked and support this with evidence if you can. Don't be emotional in the letter, make sure you tell them how disgusted you are with their lack of service. They may well say she should call called before travelling so they could arrange roaming charges, but you can highlight the fact that she didn't make any calls (or just made a few). You should also ask them to look at her history to see her pattern.

On one occasion when I travelled I didn't notify Tmobile and they called me to check that I was using my phone legitimately, they then asked me if I wanted to set up a roaming package. I wonder why Orange didn't offer this to your mother. They obviously noticed the strange activity, yet they didn't actually do anything about it. These are all points that you should highlight.

One other thing I would strongly advise is each time you call take the persons name and note it with the date and time you spoke to them, you will probably need this information in future. Also at the end of each call ask if they have noted this on her account. You can even ask what they have said. Then next time you call, before you say ANYTHING, just ask them "can you tell me what is noted on the account"...you are forcing them into telling you the truth and they won't be able to lie and fob you off. You will also know if they haven't been dealing with your case properly.

If you don't have any luck threaten them with the financial ombedsman (my husband did this when BT automatically withdrew £200 from out bank account for cancelling early, even though we hadn't cancelled early and they refused to refund us - worked a treat!!). If all else fails contact the financial ombedsman, even citizens advice should be able to help.

Good luck.

They may say contact before travel


Each time you call, ask them what the account says

Guys_Dad

Fifer wrote: »

But according to the OP, she didn't.


If she didn't want, need or ask for a phone which uses data services as a default and didn't realise that's what she was sold, I disagree.........So if a customer wants a phone and is sold something far more complex and expensive to use as being suitable for her needs and without the complexity and expense being explained, you don't think that's miss-selling? Again, we disagree.

I take your point, but there was one telling point made by OP who wrote "My mum has been their customer for over 4 years, always paid her bill and never had a bill over £150 "

Now, £150 seems very high to me, so what would run up such costs? The way it is written, the £150 doesn't seem to be that extraordinary as to be unacceptable. Personally, I would have gone spare at that sort of monthly bill and either changed my plan - unless it was a complete one off - or changed my mobile habits.

There are too many loose ends here.

NFH

lizzywig wrote: »

If you don't have any luck threaten them with the financial ombedsman (my husband did this when BT automatically withdrew £200 from out bank account for cancelling early, even though we hadn't cancelled early and they refused to refund us - worked a treat!!). If all else fails contact the financial ombedsman, even citizens advice should be able to help.

I think you mean Otelo who are the Telecommunications Ombudsman. The Financial Ombudsman handles disputes about financial services, not about telecoms services.

tazdevil01985

ShugMonkey wrote: »

GD, not sure I agree with point 3.
Data can surely be blocked without blocking the phone signal.
I would assume that Ukraine was 2g anyway.

This data thing does worry me when I'm abroad, and I like to think I'm quite clued up on how to use my phone.
I could see my old Dad getting caught out, pressing the wrong button etc when he's abroad, as he's done the same in the UK, and moaned about his £1 extra for data cost.

Data roaming needs disabling on ALL phones unless the user requests it.
We have to ask for roaming on our account, so why not data roaming as well.

On a blackberry you can set data roaming to No its in the settings and it also warns you as well ! Should get a pop up warning you ( I get this when I go from Orange to T Mobile on my Blackbery whilst using data) In response to a previous question, Yes its 2G Data Roaming in Ukraine with Orange.
@lizzywig with regards to the bill jumping from £1300 to £3000 I explained earlier on in the post that this will be due to the Ukrainian networks being slow to send the CDRs in the TAP records. Orange advises Roaming charges can be added upto 3 months after, this is due to TAP files can be processed upto 90 days after the transactions (the far end networks can have outages, the clearing house (how TAP files are passed from one network to another) may have issues etc.)

What the OP needs to do is to dispute the bill with CS, ask for a restriction code (An LI code if I remember correctly) to stop the account going to collections and pay the monthly bill (for example £35.00). I would suspend or cancel your DD if you have one setup so that they cant take the full amount. This needs to be passed to Oranges billing team support team (who are back office support team and are not contactable via phone or letter) to examine the TAP files as Jon01 has advised earlier and this will clear things up one way or another. If you fail to get satisfactory answers from anyone on the way escalate the usual way to a Team Leader/Supervisor and then to a Manager. If you are still not satisfied with the answers then there is always the executive office which can overview the case and are contactable via email.

Fifer

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Now, £150 seems very high to me, so what would run up such costs? The way it is written, the £150 doesn't seem to be that extraordinary as to be unacceptable. Personally, I would have gone spare at that sort of monthly bill and either changed my plan - unless it was a complete one off - or changed my mobile habits.

And I take your point.

Unless of course, the OPs mother makes frequent calls to relatives in the Ukraine?