ASHP – Should do better - Must Do Better

lovesgshp

muckybutt wrote: »

The list of fault codes on p 19 there is a picture of the control / diagnostic panel. The fault codes only come on when there is a fault, the common one is d1 which is defrost, when defrost done it clears itself.

They both cover the 9000i, but no problem. When an alarm is reset it will not normally show, so you cannot see the reason for it, that's why it would be good to be able to see the whole log.
The point I made re the radiator valves is on page 16 of the manual you linked me to, so no problem.

rhiwfield

I wrote before that I had some sympathy with Cardew's original post.

Now, after a lot of research, and having dealt with several potential installers for an ASHP at my house, I've even more sympathy!

The level of professionalism shown by potential installers has been awful. No shows, outright lies, nil response to queries, ludicrous heat requirement estimates, no response to contacts - only once did a company write to apologise that they were too busy. Its maybe a miracle that I've just had a second quote, not on the basis discussed with the surveyor though (the only one who actually made it to the house), and weeks late.

While I'm convinced that the market will mature I feel that what expertise is out there, is spread so thin that its pot luck if you get a knowledgeable installer.

So although I still consider ASHPs to be a viable retrofit option for those off gas grid, it seems the chance of getting a badly designed system that will not deliver on promises may be all too real.

Scargill

Hi all

Im a small developer in the south, we have been building individual houses for many years. We have been using underfloor heating for the last 8 years or so and have come to really love this form of heating. We normally use a gas condensing boiler in conjuncton with the underfloor but have recently purchased a plot that is out of the area for gas so the obvious alternative is oil.

The house we are building is about 1800 sq f and will be to the latest building regs.

My question is:

Is it worth considering using a air source heat pump instead of an oil fired condensing boiler in this situation?

albyota

Scargill wrote: »

Hi all

Im a small developer in the south, we have been building individual houses for many years. We have been using underfloor heating for the last 8 years or so and have come to really love this form of heating. We normally use a gas condensing boiler in conjuncton with the underfloor but have recently purchased a plot that is out of the area for gas so the obvious alternative is oil.

The house we are building is about 1800 sq f and will be to the latest building regs.

My question is:

Is it worth considering using a air source heat pump instead of an oil fired condensing boiler in this situation?

You only have to look at the rising cost of oil and LPG to realise that it would be a difficult property to sell if that was your choice. An air source heat pump would be the perfect solution for UFH as you are building to the latest regs. Get plenty of quotes and research the better brands, Mitsubishi Ecodan, Daikin altherma, LG and Panasonic are your best bet, if you try penny pinching on quality of kit and/or installer, it will bite you on the R's.

Good luck

AL

bernithebiker

An interesting discussion.

I would be happy to share some neutral, raw data for a new ASHP project going into one of our holiday houses.

It is replacing an LPG boiler, probably THE most expensive way to heat a house (even more than basic elec.resistance heating), and it just went up another 5% yesterday.

I too read many horror stories of heat pumps being ripped out, and disgruntled customers, so I thought long and hard before choosing this solution. Only time and data will tell if I was right or not.

The house is a 100m2, stone cottage, renovated recently and drylined, so walls are well insulated. Mostly double glazing, and good roof insulation. Underfloor heating + a few rads. (House can be seen here; http://www.frenchberry.fr/lostmarch/lostmarch.html

Current LPG cost about £1200 / year (house not much lived in winter).
Current elec cost about £300 / year

Air/water heat pump by SDEEC, 9.85kW at 7'C/35'C, COP of 4.3. At -15'C, COP of 2.35.

As this is a coastal location, temperatures very rarely get below 0'C. (20 miles away they can hit -8, once or twice a year, but by the sea, -1 or -2 is the lowest it gets).

So worst case COP should be at 0'C/35'C = 3.69.

Data can be checked here ; http://www.sdeec.fr/doc/Fiche-RM-55-SDEEC.pdf

I have a watt meter being fitted for the heat pump, so I will be able to see exactly how much it is using. I am hoping that the good insulation, the underfloor heating and the mild area will give good performance.

Hot water is by simple immersion tank, capable of taking a feed from solar panels in the future. (This is unchanged from before).

Going in next week, so should start getting data by next weekend.

This will therefore be a totally unbiased, real world example of an ASHP in a standard house.

If I can get the heating cost down from £1200 to £600, I will be happy.

Total cost = £8000 installed, so over 10 year payback, at TODAY'S PRICES!!! Maybe it will turn out to be 5 years.......

lovesgshp

Sounds like a good setup Berni. Will be interested to see the results of the running costs. ASHP sizing looks to be pretty much spot on for the property size.

harryhound

muckybutt wrote: »

Ill add a bit about our ashp.

We were given it as a fuel poverty grant fully funded so didnt have owt to pay, we were on oil before which supposedly cost more than the ashp would.

The house was measured up and design done by the manufacturers agent and all the pipe work and rads replaced.

Now we live in a 1850's terraced with no double glazing as we are listed and cant have it and we have solid walls.

The system itself is ok I cant complain it was well installed and comissioned by heatking themself's so we know everything is ok with it. However as stated it costs an effing fortune to run, our comparable leccy bill the year before was £110 for the quarter, the same quarter a year later cost us over £800. Our oil bill the year before was only £320 and that lasted us some 5 months so we're well out of pocket.

How has it coped with the cold ? water output even on the coldest of days has been 42 - 47 deg, when the weather warms up between 46 - 56 deg, cant say weve been roasting inside and werent expecting to be but I like my hot water hot ! which sadly some days it just isnt so we then have to top it up with the immersion heater.

Noise wise when running it is quite quiet you can easily have a conversation in front of it, defrost is a little noisier as my neighbours informed me via the council noise enforcement officer ( thanks ! ) :mad:.

Well we had it installed Sept 09 and are soon getting it ripped out as it cant be said its cost effective for our house, back to basics for us with a multi fuel stove.

thechippy wrote: »

Just to clarify......................................................................................


So, despite being in the trade, I agree with Cardew on these things, they need to improve considerably.

I would only even "consider" one on the following basis...

1. The property is VERY well insulated
2. Heat calcs done correctly
3. No access to mains gas.
4. Property unsuitable for air to air hp's

I could not put it better than than to quote "TheChippy".

muckybutt's saga of a failed implementation just leaves me with this thought: Who was the public servant who agreed to installing heat pump technology in an unsuitable property (19th century single glazed draughty (?)) OMG
How much tax payers money has been thrown away.
Does said public servant intend to resign.
How many other households are being impoverished and disrupted?

Harry.

There is at least one more thread from a desperate tenant with some sort of gizmo in his loft (?) that appears to swallow its own tail, running at the moment.

TiredGeek

I've given up with our system as well. We're having an LPG boiler fitted later this summer. I know it's going to be dearer to run if we were using it constantly, but we're wanting just frost protection and the occaisional weekend, so we reckon it'll save us in the short run. We'll look into this type of technology again in a few years when the house is our primary and no longer a holiday home.

I'm not knocking the Mitsi EcoDan, I think in the right house with a competant installer and a well designed instalation the technology would work.
I don't think for a sprawling victorian farm house with moderate insulation and just oversized rads it's the best route.

In my opinion it's not an absolute "don't ever buy one", just do your own research before hand, don't believe all you're told, check and check again any statements they tell you, and try to get a cast iron "if it don't work as you say it will, I get my money back" warranty.

Oh, try to conduct as little business over the phone as possible (with whichever company you use). Use email, save EVERYTHING you or they say, print it out in case your computer crashes, keep it bloody safe. You may well need it in the future when you have a problem, wouldn't it be great if you had a hard copy of them saying something like "it'll be far more reliable and cheaper to run than your old gas system" when your chatting to Trading Standards a year or two down the line.....
(we did, Trading Standards was delighted :rotfl:)

Cardew

TiredGeek wrote: »

I've given up with our system as well. We're having an LPG boiler fitted latet this summer. I know it's going to be dearer to run if we were using it constantly, but we're wanting just frost protection and the occaisional weekend, so we reckon it'll save us in the short run. We'll look into this type of technology again in a few years when the house is our primary and no longer a holiday home.

I'm not knocking the Mitsi EcoDan, I think in the right house with a competant installer and a well designed instalation the technology would work.
I don't think for a sprawling victorian farm house with moderate insulation and just oversized rads it's the best route.

In my opinion it's not an absolute "don't ever buy one", just do your own research before hand, don't believe all you're told, check and check again any statements they tell you, and try to get a cast iron "if it don't work as you say it will, I get my money back" warranty.

Oh, try to conduct as little business over the phone as possible (with whichever company you use). Use email, save EVERYTHING you or they say, print it out in case your computer crashes, keep it bloody safe. You may well need it in the future when you have a problem, wouldn't it be great if you had a hard copy of them saying something like "it'll be far more reliable and cheaper to run than your old gas system" when your chatting to Trading Standards a year or two down the line.....
(we did, Trading Standards was delighted :rotfl:)

That is good news after your saga, which we followed with interest.

What is happening about the £15,000 you paid?

Your post makes a lot of sense. Nobody disputes that ASHP technology can work. The point of starting this thread was that in so many cases it simply doesn't work.

If a house is unsuitable, the installer should not attempt to fit an ASHP. If it is installed then the installer must conform to a strict and mandatory code laid down by ??


The difficulty is there is no easy way of measuring the performance of an ASHP system. We are reduced to "last year I spent £xxxx on electricity and that is good/average/poor/awful*"

* delete as required!

TiredGeek

Our £14k ? Hence my reference to Trading Standards

We've asked for a refund due to breach of contract, so far they so no, they want to fit a buffer tank. It's not going to happen, they've had their chance to fix it, now it's time to call it a day.

We haven't mentioned TS to them yet, we are going to give them one last chance to change their minds, then go to the trade body who represents customers, REAL, if that get's us nowhere then it's time to call in the heavy mob

If all else fails we'll write off the money and I'll post a fully detailed timeline of all that happened and the company name.
Name 'n shame