Ground Source Heat Pumps

beardymarrow

Hi,
I've had the add. heat running on my IVT E11 a little bit over the last couple of weeks (big DHW usage so set the extra hot water on, and then went away for a few days so set holiday mode), so the GSHP has been working hard to bring back up to temp.

Anyway, my cassette is set to 2/3rd (so 6kw) max. Should I set it to 3/3 (9kw) so that on the rare occasions when it's needed, then it does the job more quickly. Surely 6kw for 1Hr is the same as 9kw for 40mins in terms of consumption and the amount that it'll heat the water by? Or am I missing something.

Thanks guys

Beardy

lovesgshp

A difficult one to answer Beardy.
Additional heat will activate after approx 60 mins on the normal compressor cycle. You can cut this off, but then that is up to you.
With the holiday function, you drop to a 15C heating level, so that will activate add heat on the one hour cycle., to bring the set temperature back up.

snowcat75

Hi, Iv been reading this thread with some interest.


Im considering going along the route of installing a heat pump, at the moment we are on an oil fired boiler that I installed sometime at the end of the 90s, I have been doing some digging around the RHI, and since have had a EPC done (although I'm yet to have the results).


Now here arises my dilemma to get a system installed by an MCS improved installer seems eye watering expensive, quotes of 17-22K with me doing the groundwork's (almost like the quotation is directly linked to the est payment RHI over the 7 years!!!).


I am now considering doing a self install and was wondering If I could simply pay to get inspections done at key stages, has anyone gone along this route?.


The other consideration was to sod the payment, source the necessary over a period of time and just install. which with fag packet maths looks like it could be done reasonably.


Or option three was to fit a new oil fired boiler and forget.


Any thoughts?

captainhindsight_2

snowcat75 wrote: »

Hi, Iv been reading this thread with some interest.


Im considering going along the route of installing a heat pump, at the moment we are on an oil fired boiler that I installed sometime at the end of the 90s, I have been doing some digging around the RHI, and since have had a EPC done (although I'm yet to have the results).


Now here arises my dilemma to get a system installed by an MCS improved installer seems eye watering expensive, quotes of 17-22K with me doing the groundwork's (almost like the quotation is directly linked to the est payment RHI over the 7 years!!!).


I am now considering doing a self install and was wondering If I could simply pay to get inspections done at key stages, has anyone gone along this route?.


The other consideration was to sod the payment, source the necessary over a period of time and just install. which with fag packet maths looks like it could be done reasonably.


Or option three was to fit a new oil fired boiler and forget.


Any thoughts?

The quotes are expensive because it is an expensive job. You get what you pay for.

I would be wary of doing it your self, all complaints about renewables especially heat pumps are not about the technology itself but the installation.

It would be unlikely a MCS installer would sign off joe blogs work as their own, as down the line that job gets audited, you leave and new occupants complain that it's not working, it is their name on the job not yours.

Other options would be biomass, if your replacing your heating and your off grid the current rhi payments are to good of an opportunity to turn down.

snowcat75

captainhindsight wrote: »

The quotes are expensive because it is an expensive job. You get what you pay for.

I would be wary of doing it your self, all complaints about renewables especially heat pumps are not about the technology itself but the installation.

It would be unlikely a MCS installer would sign off joe blogs work as their own, as down the line that job gets audited, you leave and new occupants complain that it's not working, it is their name on the job not yours.

Other options would be biomass, if your replacing your heating and your off grid the current rhi payments are to good of an opportunity to turn down.

Although I understand the sentiment, My situation is a little different, having spent all of my life building and adapting just about everything from high pressure steam vassals, to CNC machines, through to the repairs on 4000t ships, I also have contacts who although do not carry the necessary paperwork due to retirement were messing around with heat pumps before many of the current batch of installers were born.


One reason Im keen to do the work myself is for the quality of install it seams within the "green industry" 3-4 years counts as established, and im guessing very few company's would be there in 7 years time to actually give any backup to the system.


Iv also been around engineering enough years to know that paperwork to a govement standard does not make a good end product, I am very much from the school of journeyman and apprentices, not a classroom course.


The RHI payments to me do not give a fantastic return vs capital investment in my book(unless the job can be mad cheaper), and on paper and keeping the money, I would do better staying oil fired.


As for biomass I priced that last year for another job, alarm bells rang when the company refused point blank to give an itemised list of costs. I walked away.

captainhindsight_2

snowcat75 wrote: »

Although I understand the sentiment, My situation is a little different, having spent all of my life building and adapting just about everything from high pressure steam vassals, to CNC machines, through to the repairs on 4000t ships, I also have contacts who although do not carry the necessary paperwork due to retirement were messing around with heat pumps before many of the current batch of installers were born.


One reason Im keen to do the work myself is for the quality of install it seams within the "green industry" 3-4 years counts as established, and im guessing very few company's would be there in 7 years time to actually give any backup to the system.


Iv also been around engineering enough years to know that paperwork to a govement standard does not make a good end product, I am very much from the school of journeyman and apprentices, not a classroom course.


The RHI payments to me do not give a fantastic return vs capital investment in my book(unless the job can be mad cheaper), and on paper and keeping the money, I would do better staying oil fired.


As for biomass I priced that last year for another job, alarm bells rang when the company refused point blank to give an itemised list of costs. I walked away.

You and your friends are clearly far more qualified than any mcs installer out there so go for it.

The rhi payments recovering 100% of the capital out lay + more Is clearly a terrible return.

And one company not giving you an itimised quote clearly shows biomass as a technology is terrible!

I don't think you need anyone's help crack on as you are.

Robwiz

snowcat75 wrote: »

Hi, Iv been reading this thread with some interest.


Im considering going along the route of installing a heat pump, at the moment we are on an oil fired boiler that I installed sometime at the end of the 90s, I have been doing some digging around the RHI, and since have had a EPC done (although I'm yet to have the results).


Now here arises my dilemma to get a system installed by an MCS improved installer seems eye watering expensive, quotes of 17-22K with me doing the groundwork's (almost like the quotation is directly linked to the est payment RHI over the 7 years!!!).

Or option three was to fit a new oil fired boiler and forget.


Any thoughts?

That's exactly what MCS installers do! They take your deemed heat demand from your EPC, calculate your future RHI payments and then work out the installation price so that your capital outlay is returned. The domestic RHI is intended to fund the difference between using gas and the renewable technology over a 20 year installation life, but paid back over seven years.

The DfE's guidelines predict that installation costs should fall by 15% per year as installers become familiar with the technology. I don't see that happening.

The tragedy of this use of public money is that its owners of large uninsulated homes who stand to benefit the most. A better use of public money would be to stimulate demand reduction through improved insulation.

captainhindsight_2

Robwiz wrote: »

That's exactly what MCS installers do! They take your deemed heat demand from your EPC, calculate your future RHI payments and then work out the installation price so that your capital outlay is returned. The domestic RHI is intended to fund the difference between using gas and the renewable technology over a 20 year installation life, but paid back over seven years.

This isn't true though, an installer works how much it is going to cost them to do an installation then adds their profit margin 20-40% which is not unreasonable and is typical.

The RHI payments have been designed to be roughly the same as the cost of having a company do the installation.

Thus as the market gets more established, more competitive the skills become more abundant the technology moves forward the cost of materials goes down and so does the RHI payments (just like FIT did).

The purpose of RHI is not to make a profit, but to cover capital costs and to incentivise.

lovesgshp

Obviously, I do not know how the system works in the Uk. Here you can install your own heat pump, as they are fairly straightforward and as a company we will supply all the plans for a self install ( we have a few like this).
After the install is complete, then at the commisioning stage and start-up then it is signed off, if to the plan, if not it has to be corrected.

snowcat75

captainhindsight wrote: »

You and your friends are clearly far more qualified than any mcs installer out there so go for it.

The rhi payments recovering 100% of the capital out lay + more Is clearly a terrible return.

And one company not giving you an itimised quote clearly shows biomass as a technology is terrible!

I don't think you need anyone's help crack on as you are.

Strange attitude, Simple mathematics denotes that RHI payments simply do not work for myself, the capital expenditure (with the est 75% return) vs the compounded interest even at a mere 2.38%, with an average oil price vs the higher electric use completely blows getting an installed system fitted. by the tune of several thousand actually working on a 20 year model.


Not saying RHI doesn't work for some, or its not a bad thing, but working on straight capital regain on seven years is a figure that is hard to stack on a 20 year model.


If you really don't believe me I can soon show some calcs.


Love GSHP, Thanks in the new year I'm going to have a bit more of a look at the real cost of installation, At the moment in the UK I feel there's a bit of snake oil frenzy happing due to the sub, which is unfair on the genuine company's.