Ground Source Heat Pumps

beardymarrow

Patrol wrote: »

Beardy, what is your GT1 return value doing during the cooldown. I was wondering if your 3 way valve was better but not 100%.

I've made a note of my latest cooldown figures.
DHW cycle: Increases, e.g. from 28C to 32-35C.
Cooldown: Decreases to 28C in 30-60 minutes. Then stabilises.

DHW seems to drop very quickly from 53C to 51C (about 40 minutes) then slower from 51C to 49C (2 1/2 hours). Maybe my valve is closing over time, say with crud being deposited each DHW cycle and slowly clearing as the liquid circulates and flushes it out before doing exactly the same next cycle.

I suppose I could test that by switching off after a DHW cycle (GSHP, the pump on the supply heating pipe and the pump on the UFH manifold) and removing the 3 way valve for inspection.

GT1 doesn't rise during DHW production at all. It then spikes when the heat pump switches the 3-way back to Rads (due to the residual heat in the heat exchanger being pumped around the circuit), and it then drifts very slowly downwards with the general cooling of the rads.

GT1 was 26c at start of cool-down. It then rose to 26.5c within 3 minutes and then gradually cooled down to 22.5c.

My 3-way is brand new (can't beat a nice virgin 3-way), so I don't think I have any problem with that. I think I'm just getting a lot of parasitic loss from pipes or my DHW recirc.

Whilst you're on Patrol or lovesgshp, what does your DHW temp go between? I set mine to 51c with a hysteresis of 2c and the compressor cut in when it went below 50c and switched off when it went over 54c (so a hysteresis of 4c). So I've changed mine to 52c with a hysteresis of 4c and it now goes between 50c and 56c (hysteresis of 6c). So it seems to take the switch off temp, and add 2c to it for some reason. Does yours do this or does it stick to what it's told?

My GT1 temp and hysteresis is obeyed properly by the compressor.

lovesgshp

beardymarrow wrote: »

Damn you! :-) I was determined to help, but you beat me to it.

:rotfl::rotfl:

Ok. There are a number of considerations to be taken into the DHW heat loss.
1) Think of a electric kettle boiling, it switches off at the desired temperature, and then cools fairly quickly for a while. You have a similar thing with the DHW double skinned tank, that the outer cylinder heats far quicker than the inner unit.
2) the heat sensor for the inner tank is at the bottom, so therefore it senses the temperature change and shuts down the heat cycle.
3) Heat still rises within the inner tank water, so the sensor shows the drop. You will get higher temperature water out initialy.
I had not tested this before, but thismorning, caught mine just after a heating cycle. At the time, the DHW was at 52.9. Within 4 mins it had dropped by 0.9C to 52.0C, another 6 mins to 51.0C. No DHW was used during the test.

lovesgshp

The switch off is normally slightly higher than the setting, all the units I know do exactly the same, even mine.

lovesgshp

beardymarrow wrote: »

Thanks. What would the GT10/11 drop suggest is the problem?

I'm OK with the heat up times. It's the time to cool down that is still bothering me.

Those figures were from the 30th April.

Here's a more recent example from earlier today.

Time    GT1    GT2    GT5    GT6    GT8    GT9    GT10    GT11    GT3x    Compressor
13:57    22.0    14.7    19.4    39.5    42.4    22.0    15.1    12.5    52.0    OFF
13:58    22.0    14.7    19.4    39.6    42.4    22.9    15.1    12.5    52.0    ON
13:59    22.0    14.7    19.4    55.5    42.0    41.6    13.5    9.0    51.7    ON
14:00    22.0    14.7    19.4    66.3    49.1    48.4    6.2    4.4    51.3    ON
14:01    21.9    14.7    19.4    73.6    54.4    48.4    5.5    2.8    51.3    ON
14:02    21.9    14.7    19.4    82.7    55.6    49.9    5.2    2.3    51.3    ON
14:03    21.9    14.7    19.4    85.8    55.6    49.9    4.9    2.1    52.9    ON
14:04    21.9    14.7    19.4    87.3    55.8    49.9    4.8    1.9    52.9    ON
14:05    21.9    14.7    19.4    88.8    55.9    50.0    4.8    1.9    54.1    ON
14:06    21.9    14.7    19.4    90.0    56.1    50.0    4.7    1.9    54.6    ON
14:07    21.9    14.7    19.4    90.9    56.3    50.1    4.6    1.7    54.6    ON
14:08    21.9    14.7    19.4    93.2    56.9    50.7    4.6    1.7    54.9    ON
14:09    21.9    14.7    19.4    94.5    57.8    51.7    4.6    1.7    55.0    ON
14:10    21.9    14.7    19.4    95.5    58.6    52.7    4.6    1.7    55.3    ON
14:11    21.9    14.7    19.4    96.5    58.8    53.1    4.6    1.7    55.3    OFF

The temps into GT10, look low for this time of year. I would have expected higher, especially as heating requirement is lower, so basically just DHW.
As you have not got a pressure gauge fitted, then it does get harder to work out.
Have you got these flow valves anywhere on the ground loop (red/brass in the last picture on the page)?
http://www.geotherm.it/Sonde_geotermiche.html
Can you check the speed setting on the ground loop pump itself (1,2,3)

lovesgshp

Patrol wrote: »

Beardy, what is your GT1 return value doing during the cooldown. I was wondering if your 3 way valve was better but not 100%.

I've made a note of my latest cooldown figures.
DHW cycle: Increases, e.g. from 28C to 32-35C.
Cooldown: Decreases to 28C in 30-60 minutes. Then stabilises.

DHW seems to drop very quickly from 53C to 51C (about 40 minutes) then slower from 51C to 49C (2 1/2 hours). Maybe my valve is closing over time, say with crud being deposited each DHW cycle and slowly clearing as the liquid circulates and flushes it out before doing exactly the same next cycle.

I suppose I could test that by switching off after a DHW cycle (GSHP, the pump on the supply heating pipe and the pump on the UFH manifold) and removing the 3 way valve for inspection.

If you are going to remove the 3 way, then suggest you have another on hand, to replace, maybe on a sale or return basis. Not worth doing the same operation twice.

Patrol

Hi
I've just seen a 17 minute cycle from 46.1-53.1C.
(previous best was 21 minutes 46.8-53.1C)

You'll either groan, or laugh. I've mis-understood Beardymarrow's WD40 post and had sprayed the red indicator on the actuator thinking that the WD40 would get into the mechanism that way.

Feeling a bit silly having now taken the plastic cover off that, then finding a release clip at the base then seeing the needle. I sprayed some WD40 in there and moved the needle a couple of times with thin nosed pliers and re-assembled it all.

I then checked and Beardy had stated exactly that but I was checking so many things I didn't pick it up. Mea culpa.

14.50 DHW Cycle
Time   GT1   GT3   GT11
14.50  34.1  46.1  9.1
14.53  32.2  46.7  
15.06  30.2  52.9  8.0
15.07 off

The heating circuit was rapidly cooling on a DHW cycle - good.
The DHW cycle completed a lot quicker than before.
The Supply Heat pipe was warm but nothing like previous cycles.
The Supply Heat pipe flushed hot at the end of the cycle.

I think I'll leave it a few cycles to check the valve doesn't stick again before opening the UFH/Rads/Rails up again.

I might need to re-do the movement as I don't think I fully pushed back to A - was more concerned about B fully engaging.

If this is sorted: Thank you both for your help and sorry for misleading WD40 information previously. I really appreciate your efforts and advice, and once this has stabilised I now also understand about the buffer tank so will monitor cycles when the weather cools.

beardymarrow

Patrol wrote: »

Hi
I've just seen a 17 minute cycle from 46.1-53.1C.
(previous best was 21 minutes 46.8-53.1C)

You'll either groan, or laugh. I've mis-understood Beardymarrow's WD40 post and had sprayed the red indicator on the actuator thinking that the WD40 would get into the mechanism that way.

Feeling a bit silly having now taken the plastic cover off that, then finding a release clip at the base then seeing the needle. I sprayed some WD40 in there and moved the needle a couple of times with thin nosed pliers and re-assembled it all.

I then checked and Beardy had stated exactly that but I was checking so many things I didn't pick it up. Mea culpa.

14.50 DHW Cycle
Time   GT1   GT3   GT11
14.50  34.1  46.1  9.1
14.53  32.2  46.7  
15.06  30.2  52.9  8.0
15.07 off

The heating circuit was rapidly cooling on a DHW cycle - good.
The DHW cycle completed a lot quicker than before.
The Supply Heat pipe was warm but nothing like previous cycles.
The Supply Heat pipe flushed hot at the end of the cycle.

I think I'll leave it a few cycles to check the valve doesn't stick again before opening the UFH/Rads/Rails up again.

I might need to re-do the movement as I don't think I fully pushed back to A - was more concerned about B fully engaging.

If this is sorted: Thank you both for your help and sorry for misleading WD40 information previously. I really appreciate your efforts and advice, and once this has stabilised I now also understand about the buffer tank so will monitor cycles when the weather cools.

Cool. Sorry I wasn't more explicit.

You don't need to remove the plastic cover. The whole pastic assembly comes off in one go once you press the release bit (the bit of plastic next to the clear window that has the ESBE name and logo on it). Don't worry about not re-assembling it properly. The needle will slip inside the red plastic gripper when it actuates and then will have it gripped, whatever position it's left in.

Mine was better with WD40, but it wasn't perfect. It still leaked between A and B (you could see it once it was taken off). My advice, get rid of the ESBE and replace with an LK Armatur. You'll see how stupid the design is if you look at the fact that the metal pin doesn't really engage with the red gripper in any sort of proper way. I'll take a photo of mine later so you defo get the right part if you like?

beardymarrow

lovesgshp wrote: »

The temps into GT10, look low for this time of year. I would have expected higher, especially as heating requirement is lower, so basically just DHW.
As you have not got a pressure gauge fitted, then it does get harder to work out.
Have you got these flow valves anywhere on the ground loop (red/brass in the last picture on the page)?
http://www.geotherm.it/Sonde_geotermiche.html
Can you check the speed setting on the ground loop pump itself (1,2,3)

Cheers. There was no CH demand at all that day, it was all DHW.

I'll check the ground loop pump speed later. I may get in touch with a plumber to get a pressure gauge and filling loop fitted anyway.

I've got flow valves on all 3 of the ground loop pipes and all are fully open.

lovesgshp

beardymarrow wrote: »

Cheers. There was no CH demand at all that day, it was all DHW.

I'll check the ground loop pump speed later. I may get in touch with a plumber to get a pressure gauge and filling loop fitted anyway.

I've got flow valves on all 3 of the ground loop pipes and all are fully open.

Are the flow valves the same as the pic the link I sent you, or just the normal blue valve?

lovesgshp

Beardy.
Re ELA and H10 unit, these are the replies I have just received:

electric anode alarm
in the control unit Rego 637 that I know there's not this alarm. Electric anode in C series is not connected to the control unit, there is only the control led. In the new HE, instead, electric anode is connected to the Rego 1000. However, in any accumulation you can install a third parties electric anode.

hus data cable
I've never seen anything like it. Thanks for the tip.
When I asked to IVT if it was possible an interface from that parallel port, the response was approximately that it can only be used at the factory. Any unauthorized use may invalidate the warranty, then you can do anything, but unfortunately we can not get support.