MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Can kids buy anything they want?

DevilGoesDown2Bristol

timbouk wrote:

I use pctattletale. I found it to be brilliant. With a fully operational invisible free trial available.

Chat Room Monitoring
Internet Monitoring
Keylogger Recording
Email Monitoring
Screenshot Capture
Internet Filtering
Software Monitoring
Invisible Operation

Emails you logs of all msn chats, copies of all emails etc
It even captures "myspace" passwords etc

Despite what it says on PC Tattletale's website, it's also dubiously legal if you don't tell your child about it - particularly in the case of older children - and in any case is in my opinion sneaky, underhanded, and a sure-fire way of ruining your relationship with your child. Why do you need "silent" monitoring? If you're going to allow your child to use the Internet and you don't feel that they are responsible enough to do so unmonitored, you should have some backbone and TELL them that monitoring is a condition of them using the Internet at home and give them the choice of using it under conditions or not at all!

Come on, take a step back from the hysteria about roaming hordes of paedophiles and the "anything I do to keep my child safe is justified" and ask yourself whether such dirty, sneaky behaviour is warranted or is a good basis for the sort of relationship you want with your child. They ARE going to find out about the monitoring; PC Tattletale's claim that a user can't discover the installation are - and I go on record as an information security analyst here - absolute nonsense. You don't need to be an expert and you don't need to do anything clever... if your child suspects monitoring and is even vaguely tech-savvy they'll find out in half an hour, tops.

Even if they don't, how are you going to USE any information you find without tipping them off that they've been under surveillance all along, and just what are they going to think of you then?

Anyway, the posited scenario is that of a 13-year-old buying a laptop with their own money. If you install the software on the computer THEY purchased and do so without their knowledge or consent, it's entirely possible that you're breaking the law.

This cloak-and-dagger nonsense is another example of technology supplanting good parenting. It's YOUR house, YOU pay for the electricity to run the posited laptop, YOU pay for the connection to the Internet and associated costs, YOU are responsible for the child's well-being. Why go behind their backs?

If you're after an approach with a bit more integrity - and one that will actually protect your child's computer installation instead of just letting you know what happened - then I'd suggest another angle. There are a large number of software packages out there that allow you to control which applications are used by whom and when, and that can set time limits on computer usage overall.

One example which might be worth your consideration is:

http://downloads.theregister.co.uk/Windows/Internet/ParentalControl/kidswatch_time_control.html

If you're in a scenario where you'd like some control over what your children do on their computers, go and take a look. There are other packages out there too, but that might be a decent starting point to get you thinking about what features you need.

Please note that I'm not advocating that children should be allowed unrestricted access to the Internet; and in the case of many children, even to an unconnected PC! Nor am I against monitoring and/or logging activities per se. What I'm saying is that the restrictions you put in place should be explained and/or negotiated with your child (according to age and maturity) instead of stooping to loathsome and underhanded snooping activity.

codger wrote:

So: well done, saving up for the car. But no, you can't drive it. You're too young. And well done, saving up for the laptop for use in your bedroom. But no, you're too young to have unrestricted web access so it won't be possible at this time to have a modem connection or wireless hook-up -- if you need that, then use Mum's or Dad's, which actually does have protection on it so strong that no 13-year-old, no matter how clever, will be able to get around it.

Damn straight! These snooping packages sell you a message of mistrust and justify it with fear. As many people in this thread have mentioned, you've got to establish trust at some point and the best way is to set boundaries you can gradually relax, not to monitor your child's every movement without telling them.

I'd say to Lellie that although the Internet never did you any harm as a teenager, a) it ain't the same out there any more, and b) my work has brought me into contact with many, many people who have been harmed quite severely in one way or another by naive Internet usage, and I'm not even talking about "predators".

Finally, I'm right bang alongside kuniform's approach of last resort: "Because I said so" is always an option if negotiation and persuasion fail At least that way you're telling your child what your values are and teaching them that there are boundaries and disappointments in life instead of tricking them into thinking they're trusted only to be let down with a bang later!

kfn1502

Along with other parents on this thread, we have also had faced this situation. When our very-much-trusted second daughter was 13, and had her laptop in her room with the door shut, she exposed her breasts to a boy (she knew as a friend of a friend) via webcam. The second time she did it, she was upset and confessed to me. We then dealt with the situation - with the boy's parents, and with our daughter. She now, by her own choice, almost exclusively uses the computer in family areas. If she does use it in her room, the door is kept open.

I have also, from time to time, logged on to her computer and read some of the chat histories. This has been quite disturbing at times, and we have had to deal with some of the issues I've discovered. But as we don't want her to know we've been 'spying', we deal with them through normal conversation and family discussions.

Certainly teenagers need to have increasing freedom, as they journey toward adulthood. But equally they still need solid boundaries because they ARE NOT adults and it remains our responsibility as parents to teach them how to deal appropriately with the life issues they will face. And at 13 (and for a bit longer), their hormones are raging, so keeping fairly tight controls is important.

I have a very good, open relationship with both my teenage daughters, who are now 16 and almost 15. They both communicate well with us, and while they occasionally resent the boundaries we've had in place, overall they are responsible, well adjusted, and well liked young people who contribute positively to society.

Parents considering this moral dilemma: be encouraged as you set boundaries and work through the issues which your teenager will face. There IS light at the end of the tunnel!

maathome

Hi
As a parent of a 13 year old I would let them buy it but for internet access it would have to be downstairs in a public room where I could see in passing what was happening. If this wasn't acceptable to them then they don't get the internet - simple as!!!

abijanzo

Personally I would not be happy at all letting a 13yr old child have unrestricted access to the info on the net - no way! no matter how responsible or mature they are still impressionable children

Imagine having all of that !!!!!! some involving children/animals/extreme voilence etc, all of the violent and sick snuff video's etc on your childs bookshelf or in their dvd rack - would you be happy with that?
Add to that a direct video feed or mobile phone link to God knows how many people you don't know? Some of them much older, some of them sick and perverted people.
I dont think this is an over reaction just an observation.

Kids of 13 are naturally curious about lots of things they are not 'allowed' to see and we restrict their knowledge of such things for good reason - theyre not mature enough to cope with some info yet, and not savvy enough to make the right decisions sometimes either. I hate to think of a 13yr old sifting through some of the filth on the net alone.

I hope that when mine get to that age I will be honest enough to say to them - no you cant have internet access in your room because there are things you may want to look at and I would prefer you didnt.

Sometimes parents just have to have the guts to say No means No and when youre older you may understand.

jamesebaker

Don't be too sure about the strength of web filtering software and even web filtering placed at the ISP.

There is a project called Torpark which was released by an international group of security experts and human rights workers known as Hacktivismo, Torpark enables you to circumvent content filters and other restrictions imposed on your current Internet access by accessing a randomized, worldwide proxy network that hides your actual IP address. It was designed with China and other government restricted countries in mind. Torpark can be run from a USB drive without installation, and includes several security-minded extensions.

So there are easy ways to overcome internet restrictions without being a hacker!

So the question has to be, how much do you trust your child to use it within the restrictions you place, and how much do you trust their friends. Most kids, especially boys are at one stage or another going to look at websites that as parents you wouldn't want them to, whether its their own self wonder or induced by peer pressure.

I personally wouldn't allow children to have internet access in their bedromm until 16 at the earliest, after which they become legally responsible for themselves, but you still remain morally responsible until they fly the nest.

beccolina

Hi there,

I just wanted to contribute that I was 14 when I got my first laptop for doing my homework while on a three month school trip. I could connect to the internet at the time (including in my room) only it was more expensive and much slower than today.

There was never any debate about these issues because my parents just trusted me. Those parents here wanting the laptop to be in the living room should think also about how the child will sit there (hunched on the sofa near the router?) and whether they will need to concentrate or may be distracted in the living room.

Saving my space passwords etc really violates a child's privacy in my opinion. But you could sit down and look at the profile they have created together to make sure it is decent and talk about not to meet on-line friends in real life or only under supervision etc. Ultimately you need to just talk openly about what they can or can't do on-line and if they get disturbing spam or msn messages etc to tell you.

beccolina

TypeR

The answer is to allow the computer, but use the router purchased by the parents to lock down the content fed to the PC, one such router is the Netgear DG834G, which has the ability to block adult content - the router has a username and password protection, no further PC configuration is required.

Edit:

It can also be used to block down the ports to instant messenger services, stopping the child entering chatrooms and chat in general.

FABFI_2

I think the laptop is fine to have; it's a requirement in some schools now (my 14 year old son's, for instance). However, access to the internet should be where the parents can see what's going on and that's not in the bedroom!

leona71

I would certainly let them buy the laptop, my OH has internet monitoring running a link from his PC's to my daughters. So we tell her that we can see everything she's doing, this puts her off doing anything she shouldn't be doing.

The PC is in her bedroom and she has internet access, we trust her entirely with this. She uses it mostly for school work, Sims and MSn.

Leona

silverbirch_3

Have to say I would never let me 14yr old son have internet access in his room, we already know he can't be trusted with it. My mom's computer is in the spare room so when son is there he was using it unsupervised. My mom upgraded to broadband, the guy from the cable company went into history to demonstrate to her how much faster her usual pages would load and then started giving her the wink and making naughty comments. As soon as he'd gone I had to go and investigate the history for her and it was full of !!!!!! and the dates corresponded with when my son, then 13 had been there. I checked the history at home to discover similar at time my son had been left alone for short periods. Now the pc is passworded and he can only use it when i'm in.
The temptation is just too great, I'm sure if you think back to what you did at 13 and then imagine you had access to the info the internet provides you'd have been looking up allsorts.