Are UK Universities a drag on our economy?

shortchanged_2

Really2 wrote: »

I think the long term plan is to make is to make it more like open university (not a residential education like it is in many cases).
There is no reason why lectures could not be webinars any more, etc. Students could have access to a better standard of lectures at a far lower cost.

You're probably right but unfortunately it takes away the life experience of leaving home to go to University.

shortchanged_2

I do think there needs to be some reform of University Education because there are without doubt too many Mickey Mouse courses out there which are a waste of scarce resources.

However I don't feel that massive fees is the answer because University will become a bastion of the wealthy again, as parents of such children will be able to absorb these costs. All this is going to acheive is a widening of class division again.

Higher Education should be about educational ability and not ability to pay.

setmefree2

misskool wrote: »

Heating for lecture hall to seat 100 people

If we've got 100 students in our lecture hall at £9k plus a 20% government contribution * 3 years = £3,240,000

If it costs us £3 million to educate 100 students - it's no wonder the UK is going bankrupt.

:cool:

Really2

shortchanged wrote: »

You're probably right but unfortunately it takes away the life experience of leaving home to go to University.

I think that is part of the problem, it has gone from education to life experience.
I have eared far to many times of "going to Uni for the experience" I think making people pay will stop those people.

jennikitten

pinkteapot wrote: »

My degree was worth far, far more than the £1k per year tuition I paid (in terms of both the experience of doing it and what I earn now). It was a good degree from a good university. There are plenty of courses out there that aren't worth the maximum £9k tuition and hopefully won't charge it (or if they do they won't survive). I hope to see university become more of a market, with a price difference for what is clearly a product where quality varies.

Mine is a good degree from a good university, but was it worth it for me? I'm not sure. The standard of teaching was, quite frankly, appalling overall. I had better teaching in my local comprehensive school (which was considered a relatively bad school). And I had better access to resources at school too. At university I had 5 hours' teaching a week in my final year, and 7-8 in the other two years. I was taught by unqualified postgrads who didn't care, qualified lecturers who just read off their powerpoint slides from 5 years ago, and was one of about 300. Even in small seminars, not one lecturer or student who 'taught' me bothered to learn my name. One lecturer deducted marks from my friend's grade because she didn't like her handwriting...I could go on forever. Frankly, they should have been paying me.

My degree helped me get my first proper job, and that's it. What I do now I could have done with A levels or less.

lostinrates

Lectures could often be BETTER done as recordings. Giving a longer term resource and a better revision source.....but also would be spoon feeding and not developing the skills of students to take in information at speed (important in some professions, if not directly.)and prioritisation. I would have found dissection by t'internet cleaner but less eductational. Sometimes you have to get your hands in there.

misskool

setmefree2 wrote: »

MissKool do you really, really, really think it should cost £2 million pounds to educate 60 people?

I wouldn't think it would be too far off the mark. Most universities run at a deficit.

Of course, there are wastages, as there are in every workplace/business.

To add some more to the figures
1x cleaner for the whole building at 17k a year
2x maintenance man at 20k a year
1x it guy at 24k a year
A lot of human resource support is required for things to work (and to work together). All salary quoted without pension too. Pension contributions differ based on which schemes they join.

Let's look at public schools in England then (which are comparable for facilities and in the same sector). Each student at a top public school would pay more than £10k a year (which is less than what a university would demand) and that's without the uniform, the meals, the bus fares, the school trips etc (some of which are included in your university fees)

Please don't tone down because I'm a board guide, I just happen to be part of a university so I can actually discuss it instead of the other complicated stuff on this board :rotfl:

alipops1986

I think there's been a problem with university and the process in this country for a few yrs now.

I've been out of university for about 1.5 yrs now, was there for three years and did my fourth year in employment based training. Now i'm a teacher.

Yes, i do have a loan of about £12k mainly from the living loan, not for tuition fees. I worked constantly for upto 20-25hrs a week throughout my time at uni, otherwise i had £3.11 a day to live on approx.

Due to the means testing, my parents were classed as able enough financially to pay for me. Fortunately, they did pay my tuition fees but i think it's wrong to assume that just because parents may ,according to a system, have money to pay for their children, they should.

I'm the youngest of four and the only one of my siblings to go to university; however, i don't believe just because my parents are deemed financially sound to afford to pay for me, they should have to. Afterall, they paid into the system from which these grants are available.

Also, university isn't all about a life experience. It's about education. I ONLY went to university because there was no other way of being a teacher, i went specifically for that purpose and fortunately, i'm now in the job i started out to be in many years ago. Never, did i think, i'm off to get drunk and rave for four years! Totally the wrong attitude. Society and the government need to realize that no, university isn't a necessity and at times there are people who need to find alternatives that suit them.

mustrum_ridcully

setmefree2 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with you Misskool 'cos you are the board mod.... but your figures are just a tad unconvincing Just a tad mind.....;)

Why?

For your imaginary 60 students I can easily imagine 10 lecturers being required just to do the teaching and assessment. Let's say they earn an average of £40k. Except we all know :whistle: that the cost of an employee isn't just their salary you have to add stuff like employers NI contributions ~£5000 and pension contributions ~£2000 (depends on employees contributions). So the cost of 1 lecturer is £47k, that gives us £470k just to employ the lecturers.

Then there are things like security staff, caretakers, technicians to pay for. Oh and lets not forget about phone, water, gas and electricity bills, they must be massive. Business rates, I imagine universities aren't exempt as it's applied to all non-domestic properties.

I don't know the details of university finances but just using the figures above and commonsense together with misskool's figures I can easily see where the tuition fees of students will disappear.

setmefree2

Look what I just found!

Publishing giant Pearson looks set to offer degrees

14 December 2010 Last updated at 14:29
One of the world's largest publishers, Pearson, looks set to be given degree-awarding powers, as the government seeks to open up the university sector to more private providers.
Pearson, which owns exam board Edexcel, plans to start by offering four vocational degrees with a further education college.
But it wants to award degrees itself, which would require a law change.
The government says it is considering this.
Universities Minister David Willetts has made no secret of his plans to open up the university sector to private providers.

A white paper is expected to set out plans to do this in the new year, with legislation likely to follow.
Mr Willetts is said to be encouraged that firms like Pearson are interested in taking a bigger role in higher education.
He is expected to mention the firm by name in a speech to an education conference in central London later.

Pearson anticipates it will be able to offer degree courses in business, engineering, IT and health and social care to begin with at "very competitive" prices.
It is also considering offering degrees in nursing, education and hospitality and tourism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11990787