Petrol prices hit a new high

Cleaver

AD9898 wrote: »

Cleaver, listen mate I hope your right, for everyones sake, bur we've been through this a million times, even if fusion was bought on stream within 10 years ( and it simply won't be, if ever), the scaling and time just couldn't be met.

I've said this before to you, and it's a completely unreleated and probably incredibly stupid example, but that's never stopped me before.

Imagine that it's 1975. You bring together around fifty people who own or run companies that make vinyl records, make and sell record players and run record labels. You say to them:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I need you to all start working on something. Within around 25 years you need to have invented a new way of producing, storing and listening to music. I basically need you to invent a device which is the size of a matchbox, but can hold around 10,000 albums. I know, I know, it'll be tough. But get working on it."

"Oh, and did I mention that people who own this matchbox size device also need to be able to magic songs out of the air that somehow float on to the device. So if they are sitting on the bus, and they want to buy an album, they just press a button on this device and the album magically appears on the device. You'll therefore need to invent some sort of infrastructure for this to happen."

"Oh, and lastly, this technology needs to cheap enough that the songs and albums cost far, far less than they do now and this devices only cost a few pounds for the smaller ones."

"Anyway, you've only got 25 years to get this in place. Better get on with it".


How many people would have thought all that possible 25 years ago? No one I imagine. I'm not debating that if we run out of oil (which it looks like we will) there won't be changes. But you and I don't know what people will come up with. That's all.

worried_jim

There is always a big "what if" thought when you first start pouring something other than forecourt diesel into your fuel tank, when I first started doing it it just felt wrong. Now on the rare occasions I have to buy diesel it feels wrong. Regarding cost/maintenance and things that can go wrong I only paid £575 for the car and the money saved on not buying fuel has more than covered the cost of the car. If, as someone has posted already that they were spending £70+ a week on fuel and I was in the same position I would recommend buying a late 90's Audi A4 tdi, it has all the toys including climate and would be perfect for long journeys (I know, I used to run one). A good car could be purchased for £1500 or less and veg sourced form a cash and carry would be about £14 per 20L making a 60L tank £42 rather than £75 at the pump. This would make a £33 saving per fill up which if you were filling once a week would equate to a saving of £1716 over the year and that the car paid for. Now if like me you can source used oil form a pub/restaurant for free and are prepared to spend 30 minutes in the garage filtering it every week then the cost of motoring will come down to an annual car service. MOT, tax, Insurance and a few sundries to clean the oil. As the car is a few years old depreciation is no longer an issue either. To clean the oil I bought a water butt with a tap at the bottom £28 @ B&Q and some bag filters which clean to 0.1 micron for less then £5 off ebay. I have posted pictures on this thread-
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1961265
If anyone is interested in trying this for their car post on the above thread and there will be plenty of advice for you.
Good luck and happy free motoring ! Jim.

JonnyBravo

chris1973 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up, but I fully understand SVO / WVO and Biodiesel. Been making and using the stuff myself for several years and am a member of several ontopic forums. I also have been involved with the engine management side of the Bosch 'CR' Injection common rail system as used on most European models, and fully understand how they work, right down to fuel mapping and the actual software contained in the Flash side.

The simple fact is, most common rail systems have a pressure sensor upstream of the Injection Pump in order to monitor the pressure into the pump from the pre-supply pump, WVO / SVO is thicker than biodiesel / diesel and so the chances of the pre-supply pump maintaining the pressure (usually around 4 bar) that the ECU expects to 'see' on the injection side is unlikely in the long term - certainly not 4000 miles without triggering at least an error code - there is also an additional 2nd pressure sensor on the actual common rail also, which will shut down if the injection pump is struggling to maintain the output pressure expected.

Some common rail systems even have 'fuel quality' sensors which will prevent the car from even starting on Oil - although well made biodiesel is okay, provided its not full of soap / meth

Even if the injection pump survives the initial SVO / WVO use, its unlikely that the restriction of flow due to the thicker liquid, especially during winter will maintain 4 bar, and so the ECU will simply shut down. In the same way as it would if the in-tank / pre-supply pump failed.

To say that all common rail engines will not run on SVO / WVO is also a myth, whilst the majority of new ones won't - Many Alfa-Romeo owners have run their early JTD engines on oil, for many years, since as early as2001, and can be witnessed if you search their owners forums.

Of course, even in light of this information - running SVO / WVO is not to be encouraged on any Common Rail vehicle, and other than VAG group early - mid TDI's, it shouldn't be run in a direct injection one either without a twin tank system, due to the risk of ring gumming.

In relation to Biodiesel, i've run a BMW 320D on B100 for 21,000 miles so far with no issues or error codes (I have BMW DIS / GT1 factory level diagnostics). There are several members on the Australian Biofuels forums running 330D's and Audi PD engines on B100 also. So whilst veg is a no-no for common rail, well made biodiesel is almost as compatible as diesel, provided there is no DPF on the vehicle.

Thanks for the heads up, but I don't fully understand your post. I got as far as "SVO/WVO", so it's not alll bad.
We are talking about the big bit of metal under the bonnet aren't we?

Snooze

JonnyBravo wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up, but I don't fully understand your post. I got as far as "SVO/WVO", so it's not alll bad.
We are talking about the big bit of metal under the bonnet aren't we?

Straight Veg Oil
Waste Veg Oil

chris1973

I run my 330d on V-Power diesel and have done for the past 55k (114k on the clock). The inside of the EGR and inlet manifold are pretty much clean as a whistle which is quite impressive on its own, but even more impressive when one considers most of my journeys are short and sat in traffic.

Given that there are a huge number of issues with EGR Valves clogging and sticking on various owners' forums, piston heads and Honest John reported by vehicle owners who have used nothing but fossil diesel in their vehicles, you can't really lay the blame for clogged EGR Valves at the door of Biodiesel.

DPF are also hugely problematic on various cars that have been nowhere near to bio fuel, google 'DPF Problems' to witness this for yourself.

By the way, the biggest problem with diesel fuel began with the reduction of sulphur from diesel during the mid 1990's. This led to speculation regarding the risk of premature wear of the injection pump and other fuel related components, purely because sulphur was used as the main form of fuel component lubrication. You may be surprised to learn that nearly all Diesel fuel sold in the UK and Europe already has around 5% biodiesel content in it, partly to replace the lubrication properties which were also removed with the sulphur. In the coming years, this biodiesel content is likely to be raised to around 7 - 10%.

Its a known fact that Biodiesel has much better lubricating properties than fossil diesel, thats one reason why its added to regular ULSD. If it was damaging in any way, shape or form it would not be added to regular fuel, even in 5 or 10% quantities. Citroen and Peugeot also warrant their vehicles to run on upto 30% biodiesel content, as did VAG / AUDI / SEAT / SKODA who actually approved B100 use on pre 2006 models - again something they wouldn't do if it caused issues with EGR's.

21k on bio diesel is nothing in the grand scheme of things

Maybe not to you perhaps, but to me it is. During those 21k trouble free biodiesel miles i've already legally saved enough money on avoiding the 'tax forecourts' to pay for the repair / replacement of the Injection Pump and also still saved money. So in the unlikely event that the pump fails tomorrow, i'm still quids in. When the Government legally gives you the opportunity of saving money on fuel / fuel tax, I'm the type of person who says 'thank you' and gets on with it.

When you consider that the difference between home made biodiesel and pump diesel is almost approaching £1.00 a litre, yes thats a £65.00 saving on filling an average 65 litre tank.


As I side note, I hope your 330D is not one of the models which suffers from the manifold swirl flap issues. If it is, you might want to check them out and do something about them, as I would venture that this would be more of a pressing and potentially expensive issue than what fuel is in your tank!.

Chris, out of interest, what is the pressure output at the tip of the injector on a typical common rail? are we talking hundreds or thousands of PSI here?

Depends on the model and design, although they all run at very high pressures there are some slight variations. Suffice to say that even in an standard car, the pressure can be as high as 28,000 - 30,000 psi

Graham_Devon

worried_jim wrote: »

This would make a £33 saving per fill up which if you were filling once a week would equate to a saving of £1716 over the year and that the car paid for.

If you were filling up once per week, you'd be over the tax threshold, and are required to pay tax. (2,500 litres).

Snooze

chris1973 wrote: »

Its amazing that, given that there are a huge number of issues with EGR Valves clogging and sticking on owners forums, piston heads and Honest John reported by owners who have used nothing but fossil diesel in their vehicles.

DPF are also hugely problematic on cars that have been nowhere near to bio fuel, google 'DPF Problems' to witness this for yourself.

By the way, the biggest problem with diesel fuel began with the reduction of sulphur from diesel during the 1990's. This led to premature wear of the injection pump and other fuel related components, purely because sulphur was used for fuel component lubrication. You may be surprised to learn that nearly all Diesel fuel sold in the UK and Europe already has around 5% biodiesel content in it, partly to replace the lubrication properties which were also removed with the sulphur. In the coming years, this biodiesel content is likely to be raised to around 7 - 10%.

You're a bit behind the times Chris! It's been at 8% content on normal forecourt diesel for some time. There's a small label on the dispenser housing that says this.

Its a known fact that Biodiesel has much better lubricating properties than fossil diesel, thats one reason why its added to regular ULSD. If it was damaging in any way, shape or form it would not be added to regular fuel, even in 5 or 10% quantities. Citroen and Peugeot warrant their vehicles to run on upto 30% biodiesel content - again something they wouldn't do if it caused issues with EGR's.

Bio diesel may have better LUBRICATING properties, but the down side of this is that it burns poorly producing more emissions which then get recycled back through EGR and I/M, causing them to clog up. The more bio diesel content you have, the worse your mpg will be too, as a direct result of the poor burn. Bio diesel/veg oil should be kept in the chippy, not put in car engines.

Your comment regarding the Citroen and Peugeots may be true regarding the warrantly, but it is silly to say that because of warranty it doesn't cause any issues - and in fact a quick google of "Citroen EGR problem" and the same for Peugeot produces 8 full pages of results from google...

P.S I hope your 330D is not one of the models which suffers from the manifold swirl flap issues. If it is, you might want to check them out and do something about them, as I would venture that this would be more of a pressing issue than what fuel is in your tank!.

It is one the models yes, but they swirl flaps were removed and blanked nearly 6 years ago now.

chris1973

You're a bit behind the times Chris! It's been at 8% content on normal forecourt diesel for some time. There's a small label on the dispenser housing that says this.

Well, Its been some time since I filled up with diesel, I've actually forgotten what a petrol station forecourt looks like, let alone read a pump recently.

but it doesn't have better burning properties and the result of this is it burns poorly producing more emissions which then get recycled back through EGR and I/M, causing them to clog up

Well, i'll cheerfully carry on and take the risk with a spring in my step and a song in my heart, and *IF* I should ever experience any of these problems in the future, i'll approach them with the savings i've made over running diesel. The car is 7 years old, and with 125k on the clock, i'm at the point where I can afford to take risks and every mile is a bonus .

Either way, as far as running the vehicle goes, according the the running data produced when connected to DIS diagnostics, ALL of the parameters produced when running on Biodiesel are virtually identical to those running on Dino and all well within the values expected by the ECU, so I still remain unconvinced of any undue stresses on the vehicle components and nasties lurking around the corner.

Its also worth mentioning that BMW actually released a technical upgrade document (S201A) which allowed the use of Biodiesel as approved options in both the earlier common rail 320D and 330D. The actual 'factory upgrade' consisted only of a couple of small fuel line material changes around the fuel filter couplings, and an upgraded fuel pre-supply pump manufactured by Pierburg. These were the only changes (apparently) required to make the vehicle RME compatible, there were no other changes made to the Fuel Injection pump, Injectors etc or indeed the EGR or other fuel or emissions related components, which goes a long way to suggesting that they were either already largely biodiesel compatible, or at least BMW were perfectly happy that any risk of damage was low enough to keep those parts original even when the customer had specified and was running the RME option.

The part changes to allow for RME Compatibility are also documented here as parts 6 & 10 :-

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Sedan/Europe/320d-M47N/RHD/N/2003/february/browse/fuel_supply/fuel_pipe_diesel_pump/

This link covers my 320D, but I believe that the relevant parts are also shared with the 330D of the same period.

So the question remains, if Biodiesel is so bad for common rail engines, why did some manufacturers actually offer it from new as a factory option on their common rail cars?. I find it strange that a manufacturer would sanction and offer modifications on a brand new vehicle from the factory without any detailed background testing and research, at the point where a vehicle is brand new and they have to offer the full warranty. In my experience, manufacturers don't often carry out or offer any changes to cars which will increase the chances of the vehicle being returned with faults which have to be fixed by dealers at their expense.

and in fact a quick google of "Citroen EGR problem" and the same for Peugeot produces 8 full pages of results from google...

So are you suggesting that these EGR issues produced by searching Google are all from owners running their cars on Biodiesel? or are the majority of them reported from owners running on normal pump diesel?.

Snooze

chris1973 wrote: »

Well, Its been some time since I filled up with diesel, I've actually forgotten what a petrol station forecourt looks like, let alone read a pump recently.

Well, i'll cheerfully carry on and take the risk with a spring in my step and a song in my heart, and *IF* I should ever experience any of these problems in the future, i'll approach them with the savings i've made over running diesel. The car is 7 years old, and with 125k on the clock, i'm at the point where I can afford to take risks and every mile is a bonus .

Either way, as far as running the vehicle goes, according the the running data produced when connected to DIS diagnostics, ALL of the parameters produced when running on Biodiesel are virtually identical to those running on Dino and all well within the values expected by the ECU, so I still remain unconvinced of any undue stresses on the vehicle components and nasties lurking around the corner.

Its also worth mentioning that BMW actually released a technical upgrade document (S201A) which allowed the use of Biodiesel as approved options in both the earlier common rail 320D and 330D. The actual 'factory upgrade' consisted only of a couple of small fuel line material changes around the fuel filter couplings, and an upgraded fuel pre-supply pump manufactured by Pierburg. These were the only changes (apparently) required to make the vehicle RME compatible, there were no other changes made to the Fuel Injection pump, Injectors etc or indeed the EGR or other fuel or emissions related components, which goes a long way to suggesting that they were either already largely biodiesel compatible, or at least BMW were perfectly happy that any risk of damage was low enough to keep those parts original even when the customer had specified and was running the RME option.

The part changes to allow for RME Compatibility are also documented here as parts 6 & 10 :-

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Sedan/Europe/320d-M47N/RHD/N/2003/february/browse/fuel_supply/fuel_pipe_diesel_pump/

This link covers my 320D, but I believe that the relevant parts are also shared with the 330D of the same period.

So the question remains, if Biodiesel is so bad for common rail engines, why did some manufacturers actually offer it from new as a factory option on their common rail cars?. I find it strange that a manufacturer would sanction and offer modifications on a brand new vehicle from the factory without any detailed background testing and research, at the point where a vehicle is brand new and they have to offer the full warranty. In my experience, manufacturers don't often carry out or offer any changes to cars which will increase the chances of the vehicle being returned with faults which have to be fixed by dealers at their expense.

So are you suggesting that these EGR issues produced by searching Google are all from owners running their cars on Biodiesel? or are the majority of them reported from owners running on normal pump diesel?.

If you want to risk wrecking your engine by running it on glorified chip fat then carry on, I don't care.

Personally, I didn't pay £20k for a car to then neglect it by running it on poor mans fuel. Simple answer is if you can't afford to run your vehicle on the fuel that's intended for it then you shouldn't have bought the vehicle in the first place.

[/end of fuel discussion]

chris1973

Personally, I didn't pay £20k for a car to then neglect it by running it on poor mans fuel. Simple answer is if you can't afford to run your vehicle on the fuel that's intended for it then you shouldn't have bought the vehicle in the first place.

LOL, somebody stolen the jam out of your donut?

At least we've reached the real crux of the matter - snobbery.

As far as i'm concerned, i'm running on a fuel which, in my case, is actually approved by the manufacturer as documented and proven to you above. No more - no less, I've no idea how this falls into your 'poor mans fuel' remark. As I also mentioned before, it was also fully approved by VW / Audi / Skoda / Seat for use in their vehicles (also originally costing £20k+) upto around 2005 / 2006 and the fact is also often printed on the inside of the fuel filler cap and in the owners handbook.

Which also begs the question - since you are clearly so well off, and clearly take offense and resort to throwing insults at those who actively discuss ways to save money and look down on them - why the hell are you here, taking part on a Money Saving forum??