Dental Work Abroad

Steve_xx

Toothsmith wrote:

Exactly!!!!!!

But it wasn't a dentist who was sued and had to cough up was it???

It is the governments responsibility to ensure the healthcare services are available.

If that means they have to pay the proper price for them, then that's what it means.

It is the governments responsibility to ensure that dentistry is affordable and available to eveyone in the land. To this end there needs to be a deep and searching investigation, yes another, by the OFT in order to regulate and place suitable price caps on a basket of your overpriced services. As LizEstelle says, some change has to happen.

I note your omission in answering the following from my last posting:

Try putting yourself in the position of these unfortunate people and imagine how you yourself would feel if you had to remortgage your home to pay for your childs orthodontics. Or is that just far too far from a reality for you to consider?

Toothsmith

Steve_xx wrote:

Try putting yourself in the position of these unfortunate people and imagine how you yourself would feel if you had to remortgage your home to pay for your childs orthodontics. Or is that just far too far from a reality for you to consider?

Fortunately, the people who did this were very well in touch with reality, and sucessfully got their money back from the people who's fault it was. And probably landed the NHS with a huge legal bill as well.

As long as people have this cloud cuckoo land impression that a dentist can run a business for less funding than it costs to provide that treatment, then politicians will get away with it.

Government policy, from politicians of all shades, over the last 20+ years has got us where we are today.

When I qualified, less than 10% of dental treatment in this country was provided privately. Today, more than half is.

This is far from ideal, but until we get an honest debate about it, and people realise just where the problems originate, and sensible suggestions about how to solve it, it will continue to deteriorate.

A newspapaer article yesterday HERE shows another huge c*ck-up from the DoH in estimating how much money would be raised from NHS patient charges. This is another £108 million out of the system. That is why dentists are leaving. Practices do not run on fresh air!

Steve_xx

Toothsmith wrote:

Fortunately, the people who did this were very well in touch with reality, and sucessfully got their money back from the people who's fault it was. And probably landed the NHS with a huge legal bill as well.

As long as people have this cloud cuckoo land impression that a dentist can run a business for less funding than it costs to provide that treatment, then politicians will get away with it.

Government policy, from politicians of all shades, over the last 20+ years has got us where we are today.

When I qualified, less than 10% of dental treatment in this country was provided privately. Today, more than half is.

This is far from ideal, but until we get an honest debate about it, and people realise just where the problems originate, and sensible suggestions about how to solve it, it will continue to deteriorate.

A newspapaer article yesterday HERE shows another huge c*ck-up from the DoH in estimating how much money would be raised from NHS patient charges. This is another £108 million out of the system. That is why dentists are leaving. Practices do not run on fresh air!

You have still singularly failed to answer the question at directed at you.

Meanwhile, I have looked at a recruitment agency website. I selected the position of an associate dentist in the northwest of the UK. It seems that the best paid position there is offering a salary between 90 - 110k, and that's for an associate. So then, imagine what the average principal will be earning?

Dental practices certainly don't, as you put it, run on fresh air.

Have a look at the site:

http://flamehealth.com/vacancy_list.asp

Toothsmith

Associate dentists are still treated as self employed by the Inland Revenue.

Dental jobs are traditionally advertised on the money a dentist can expect to gross.

Those adverts mean that the gross fees the dentist will earn can be in the region of £90 - £110k.

Associate dentists then pay 'rent' to the practice owner to cover the costs of staff, equipment, materials etc.

A typical agreement is 50% of gross, but percentages vary between 40 and 50%. This information would probably be within the rest of the advert.

Therefore a job advertised at £110k would mean an income for the dentist of about £55k before tax.

Not bad, I grant you. But not what you were thinking, and much more in line with what the Government statistics say is our average.

Toothsmith

Can't remember if I've posted THIS TABLE on here yet.

Steve_xx

Toothsmith wrote:

Associate dentists are still treated as self employed by the Inland Revenue.

Dental jobs are traditionally advertised on the money a dentist can expect to gross.

Those adverts mean that the gross fees the dentist will earn can be in the region of £90 - £110k.

Associate dentists then pay 'rent' to the practice owner to cover the costs of staff, equipment, materials etc.

A typical agreement is 50% of gross, but percentages vary between 40 and 50%. This information would probably be within the rest of the advert.

Therefore a job advertised at £110k would mean an income for the dentist of about £55k before tax.

Not bad, I grant you. But not what you were thinking, and much more in line with what the Government statistics say is our average.

The question is what is going to be actually acceptable to dentists as a reasonable salary?

Now you're telling me that as well as ripping-off joe public to a level that forces remortgaging, that you also net huge funds from employing other dentists in your practise.

And still you have not answered my earlier point, and I will reiterate it:

"Try putting yourself in the position of these unfortunate people and imagine how you yourself would feel if you had to remortgage your home to pay for your childs orthodontics. Or is that just far too far from a reality for you to consider?"

Toothsmith

Steve_xx wrote:

The question is what is going to be actually acceptable to dentists as a reasonable salary?

And still you have not answered my earlier point, and I will reiterate it:

"Try putting yourself in the position of these unfortunate people and imagine how you yourself would feel if you had to remortgage your home to pay for your childs orthodontics. Or is that just far too far from a reality for you to consider?"

How do you want me to answer that point?

The people in question are, in my opinion, absolute heros.

They have realised what is going on, done a very sensible thing and actually shown up NHS dental care for the farce that it is.

They have done far more to show up the lying politicians and made much more of an impact on the situation than any number of people siting around and !!!!!ing to their computer screens about what a rip off dentists are.

By missing the arguments completely, you are just helping politicians remove dentistry from the NHS.

How do YOU feel when people have to take out loans to get their teeth fixed?

I have been writing to politicians for 20 years. I have produced articles that have made newspapers, I have even been on the telly a few times.

I WANT a publically funded dental care system. I don't belive we will get anything decent as long as the system we have at the moment remains in place, and we certainly won't get it until enough people take their heads out of the sand and look at what's really going on.

An average salary of £40k for a dentist is, in my opinion, is about right. Dentist earnings has NEVER been an issue in any of this from the dentist point of view.

The thing dentists object to is what we have to do to get that income.

Working on a 100mph conveyor belt on small delicate things like teeth is not the way to a quality care system.

Dentists are now rejecting the NHS is greater and greater numbers.

Any future public system will have to have very clearly defined treatments, and those treatments will need to be funded at a rate that enables the dentist to do a decent job.

How much is included is up to the politicians - that is their job. Doing the job in a quality based way is the dentist's responsibility.

Steve_xx wrote:

Now you're telling me that as well as ripping-off joe public to a level that forces remortgaging, that you also net huge funds from employing other dentists in your practise.

No, we don't 'net' huge funds, we 'gross' huge funds. Those funds pay for the staff that work with that associate, the material that associate uses, the equipment and maintenance of that equipment. We 'net' a reasonable profit from the space.

Dentistry works just like any other business.

ttoli

in answer to the original post.. i now live in Nortern Cyprus and have had the following done ; Root canal extraction 30 GBP, Porceline bridges 100 GBP each and i'm booked for tooth whitening next week 200 GBP. My dentist was trained by the NHS and worked in the UK for 30+ years and yes i'm very happy indeed

little_mouse_2

J have been reading this thread and there are some very interesting views held. Each person has to make life choices and they are not always easy or fair.

My point I think is a simple on. I am a mother of 2 children - 1 12 years old and 1 5 years old. My husband works for the local authority and earns approximately 18k and my mother, who is a pensioner, lives with us. I am a housewife and do local and national charity work.

My family have not had a dentist for over 4years, there are 2 reasons for this. Firstly I cannot find a dentist that will take us on as NHS patients, second if I did even then I couldn't afford the treatment.

None of our family drink or smoke or party or have Sky etc, but we do have a mortgage on the house.

I try my best to ensure that the family have healthy meals (which is not a cheap option)

The fact is quite simply our income versus expenditure does not allow for any other large costs.

Now I am in no way complaining about the amount of money that we have (compared to families in other countries, and even here, I have no reason to moan.) I simply wish to state the fact that there are people in this country who cannot afford dental care. They are not choosing to spend it on other things, they simply don't have it.

MattOsprey

I agree with the above post.
However even if you do okay for money as I do, I still have problems with rising mortgage rates etc.. trying to justify £50 per sesion for 3 sesions on dental hygeine.
I don't smoke and have never had a filling.
I live in Wales and have little chance of getting on the NHS.
Also if you are treated by a dentist overseas or Toothsmith, and something major goes wrong, it will be the NHS we all have to go to for maxiofacial problems.
I find it strange that all of a sudden private dentists who you pay a price plan to, no longer need you for annual check ups. You are now dental fit for 18 months or 2 years. I wonder why?
I say to anyone who can go to a recommended dentist in a foreign country, and you feel comfortable with what you are getting then go for it.
At least you are freeing up some time for Toothsmith to do a better job as he states.
I am like a lemon curly wurly all bitter and twisted.
I hate when dentists in this country assume they are superior to other nations. It is just not true.
As for not needing an influx of foreign dentists, you should see the 3 mile queue when an NHS dentist opens in Wales!
Sorry for the rant.
Matt