Voltage harmoniser ????

Inactive

espresso wrote: »

So are you stating that if the UK domestic mains is reduced from a typical 242V down to 220V that there will no reduction in metered kWh consumption?

If that is your belief, can you please explain?

There are a few naysayers spouting their opinion that it's snake oil etc. but no evidence has been provided proving that it does not work. I assume that you are familiar with ohms law?

Your remark about 110v supply in the states is irrelevant to this discussion.

Equally, there has been no proof that it does work.

It is " snake oil " in my book.

fwor

Avoriaz wrote: »

It won’t be exactly the same. The total power used will actually be slightly more.

When a kettle is used to boil water the kettle itself heats up. Some of that heat is lost to the air surrounding the kettle. If it takes 3 minutes to boil at 230 volts and 3 minutes 10 seconds to boil at 220 volts, that is an extra 10 seconds of heat loss to the surrounding air.

The actual calculation is very complex as the rate of heat loss will be different but the net effect is that it must take more power to boil the water more slowly.

Well of course, it is complex. You haven't yet accounted for the fact that the speed with which the kettle's cutout operates will typically depend on how quickly it has been heated up, so you will get slightly different power consumption as a result of that as well.

Inactive wrote: »

Equally, there has been no proof that it does work.
It is " snake oil " in my book.

I don't think there's any doubt at all from a technical point of view that there really is a gain to be made from these devices, and that they are ~not~ "snake oil".

However, I haven't yet seen any evidence that the payback period for an average residential user would make them worthwhile in practice. What we need is an unbiased analysis of such a device being used by a few real residential users.

System

Can you explain the technical point of view that says there is a gain?

If you are prepared to put up with reduced light from bulbs then there will be a gain, but, as has been said, the same can be achieved by fitting lower wattage bulbs. Anything that relies on heating will still require the same amount of heat input to achieve the same aim - you can't change the basic laws of physics. If the voltage is reduced then that means that either the current or the time is increased. Whichever is done will result in the same KWh used regardless.

fwor

!!!!!! wrote: »

Can you explain the technical point of view that says there is a gain?

This varies depending on the appliance.

For example: for equipment using older-style (non switched-mode) power supplies, a significant amount of energy is wasted as heat (both in the transformer and the voltage regulation circuits), and this will be reduced by lowering the input voltage.

For equipment with motors, you will get a small reduction in turning power - which in almost all cases you won't care about or even notice - but also a corresponding decrease in losses to heat.

In almost all cases the saving will be because the equipment is designed to operate normally at the lower voltage, and the majority of the extra power taken at the higher voltage will dissipate as heat.

Hence the point made several times by different people above that the one situation where you will get little or no gain (or indeed a slight loss) is where you ~want~ the end result to be heat.

[Edit - before Avoriaz comes back and points out - correctly - that this is a simplistic view and that real life is more complex: That's true, but the general principle remains that reducing the voltage reduces the losses due to inefficiency, without materially (in most cases) impairing normal operation.]

Markee

Just for your information, suppliers of Voltage Optimisation kit for commercial buildings will GUARANTEE savings of between 12-15% (definitely not "snake oil" - this stuff works!).

Some info here: http://www.powerperfector.com/

These systems are now making big in roads in the energy savings marketplace, and you will see domestic systems starting to filter into the market.

The main objective here is not necessarily reducing voltage to save money, but preventing overvoltage. In the UK the voltage is 230v, which can fluctuate by as much as + or - 10% - that means that your voltage can be as high as 250 volts. Voltage Optimisation is all about cancelling out this overvoltage (usually by transformers) with the added benefit that most electrical equipment will quite happily run at 220 volts, as this is the standard voltage for Europe and most manufacturers make their kit to be usable in Europe.

espresso

Inactive wrote: »

Equally, there has been no proof that it does work.

It is " snake oil " in my book.

So you can't give any explanation why you 'think' that it's snake oil then!

:rotfl:

There is a wealth of evidence proving that voltage optimisation does work and gives real savings - do some research and you will find lots of case studies. e.g. this article here explains the basics and gives a real life example of a 22% saving for a 9% voltage optimisation at Wycombe County Council town hall.

As I said previously you don't understand the basic principles and are simply stating your blinkered uneducated opinion on this subject.

fwor

Markee wrote: »

The main objective here is not necessarily reducing voltage to save money, but preventing overvoltage. In the UK the voltage is 230v, which can fluctuate by as much as + or - 10% - that means that your voltage can be as high as 250 volts.

I've seen this "overvoltage" point made before, but to me it seems a bit of a red herring.

The fact that mains voltage could at times be 250V is nothing new. It's been part of the specification for UK mains power for many decades, and designers of electrical equipment should all know about it and design their equipment to cope with the possible variations in voltage.

Inactive

espresso wrote: »

So you can't give any explanation why you 'think' that it's snake oil then!

:rotfl:

There is a wealth of evidence proving that voltage optimisation does work and gives real savings - do some research and you will find lots of case studies. e.g. this article here explains the basics and gives a real life example of a 22% saving for a 9% voltage optimisation at Wycombe County Council town hall.

As I said previously you don't understand the basic principles and are simply stating your blinkered uneducated opinion on this subject.

And you trust County Councils judgement on how to save money, now how many of them invested our money in to Icesave? They are gullible and naive, like many that believe this rubbish.

Sorry, I just do not believe any of it, there are commercially motivated companies making a fortune out of all of this.

You believe what you like.

System

espresso wrote: »

There is a wealth of evidence proving that voltage optimisation does work and gives real savings - do some research and you will find lots of case studies. e.g. this article here explains the basics and gives a real life example of a 22% saving for a 9% voltage optimisation at Wycombe County Council town hall.

The way that I read that article is that the savings were achieved by removing imbalance in a 3 phase supply - that I can understand. How is anything like that saving achievable in a single phase supply?

I still fail to see how any appreciable saving can be made in a single phase home environment

Markee

Inactive wrote: »

And you trust County Councils judgement on how to save money, now how many of them invested our money in to Icesave? They are gullible and naive, like many that believe this rubbish.

Sorry, I just do not believe any of it, there are commercially motivated companies making a fortune out of all of this.

You believe what you like.

No, but if you look at the PowerPerfector link I posted in my message above, you will see Tesco are rolling this out to their whole portfolio of buildings, and they know a thing or two about cost control as it maximises their profits!