Smoking Fine

Stigy

Kilty wrote: »

Really?

Why do the enclosed areas clearly have signs and the open areas do not?

Why have rail staff never told myself or anyone else at the same station not to smoke in the open area?

It's usually easier to see the signs on enclosed parts of stations and on trains, usually because you go through a door, which has a No Smoking sign on, and you'll see them stuck to windows, too. In stations there's often more than one entrance, and there's not often doors that will smack you in the face if you chose not to open them. There's also not many windows, and lamp posts and pillars are relied upon to place signage.

As long as there's a No Smoking sign on ever entrance/exit to the station the legislation can be enforced, as the smoker would usually have to have walked past said signage to gain entry to the station, unless they're changing train. That said though, there's not usually ONLY signage on entrances and exits to stations, and, althoughg not enough in my opinion, you'll usually see them dotted about on pillars and posts.

dazz7400

Thanks for the previous replies guys. I decided to get in touch with them by sending them a letter, basically asking for details on how to pay said fine, notifying them that I stated in the previous letter i sent them that I am currently unemployed. I also mentioned in my letter that on the ECML website, it said that a £50 fixed penalty notice would be handed out for offences. (They have now changed this as a result of me bringing it to there attention in my letter).

I received a reply at the weekend which I've posted below.

Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXX

Thank You for your response to our letter, dated 11th November 2010.

Firstly I would like to apologise for the article that was on our website, as I viewed it for myself and understand how it could be misleading.

The amount of £105, which we requested was not a Fixed Penalty but an out of court settlement offer. East Coast Main Line (ECML) do not issue Fixed Penalties for any offence and I believe that the British Transport Police and the Civil Police do not issue a Fixed Penalty for smoking either.

A Fixed Penalty issued by the police , would be issued at the time of the offence, for offences such as tresspass, Public Order etc.

As we do not issued Fixed Penalties, ECML officers report the crime and directly submit the report to this office for court proceedings.

It is the policy of ECML to prosecute all offenders for travel theft/fare evasions and/or Railway Byelaw offences.

Smoking is an absolute offence and as such there are no mitigating circumstances that can be provided to the court for defence. All cases are proved in our favour.

However, as a gesture of goodwill, we decided that we would write to each person who committed an offence, rather that request an immediate summons for court. This would provide them with an opportunity to submit any mitigating circumstances and if returned, we would take them into consideration and offer an out of court settlement.

Having taking your comments into consideration and as a thank you for bringing the article to my notice, I am prepared t, on this occasion, to reduce your out of court settlement to £65.00 and due to your financial circumstances, I am also prepared to extend the payment deadline until the 31st December 2010. Payment can be made in full or by instalments within this time.



In the event that the payment is not made by this date, a summons will be requested automatically, without further notification to yourself.

I'd just like to keep you guys updated in all of this and maybe get some advice on what to do know. Should I pay this reduced settlement?

I'll be offline until sometime tomorrow but I appreciate any replies i receive.

Thanks

Kilty_2

yorkie2 wrote: »

Depends on the policy in place at the station.
But if it's a Scotrail station then it doesn't
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/stations-az

Cheers - that explains it - I'm in Scotland :rotfl:

Need to be careful when I'm occasionally down south though :eek:

Gordon_Hose

Pay the reduced settlement, that's the end of it then.

Queries

I would still contact the Citizens Advice Bureau if I was you. Sometimes, if they liaise on your behalf, fines (particularly for something as trivial as this) may be waived. As an unemployed person, the amount payable is equivalent to a week's money, if the CAB can't waive it they may be able to work out a payment plan suited to your circumstances. Having worked at the CAB as a qualified, volunteer adviser, I would check out the opening hours of your local CAB and arrive half an hour prior to opening. (Afterall, you have nothing to lose and who knows, you may be better off financially afterwards!) Good Luck!

Stigy

Queries wrote: »

I would still contact the Citizens Advice Bureau if I was you. Sometimes, if they liaise on your behalf, fines (particularly for something as trivial as this) may be waived. As an unemployed person, the amount payable is equivalent to a week's money, if the CAB can't waive it they may be able to work out a payment plan suited to your circumstances. Having worked at the CAB as a qualified, volunteer adviser, I would check out the opening hours of your local CAB and arrive half an hour prior to opening. (Afterall, you have nothing to lose and who knows, you may be better off financially afterwards!) Good Luck!

This isn't a fine, it's a settlement. Unfortunately the ball is very much in ECML's court (no pun intended), and as such, they can proceed to prosecute if they wish. Having said that, if they prosecute, they'll only receive their costs back, but if they settle, they get all £105 (therefore, arguably it's in their interest to do a deal!). They're not monsters though, and TOCs often set up a small payment plan to spread the cost....bit like sofas from DFS!

The only thing I might gain legal advice regarding, would be ECML's apparent letter of extortion, lol.

dazz7400 wrote: »

Thanks for the previous replies guys. I decided to get in touch with them by sending them a letter, basically asking for details on how to pay said fine, notifying them that I stated in the previous letter i sent them that I am currently unemployed. I also mentioned in my letter that on the ECML website, it said that a £50 fixed penalty notice would be handed out for offences. (They have now changed this as a result of me bringing it to there attention in my letter).

I received a reply at the weekend which I've posted below.




I'd just like to keep you guys updated in all of this and maybe get some advice on what to do know. Should I pay this reduced settlement?

I'll be offline until sometime tomorrow but I appreciate any replies i receive.

Thanks

Why the small text? lol.

Not a bad letter on there part, but there is one error in it. A Penalty Notice for Disorder for such offences as Trespass or Public Order doesn't have to be issued at the time of the alleged offence, although it wouldn't take the form of a letter, and would be a notice, written out in front of you. As I said initially, there is NO PND/FPN for smoking. Did you make this clear to the company in your initial letter, hence why they have appeared to have back-tracked somewhat?

It does seem a little naughty how they've gone about this, as basically asking you to either pay them £105 or face court action is literally extortion. The offer of settlement usually has to come from the accused, so as to eliminate such accusations.

sharpy2010

Personally I'd either just completely ignore the letters they write, or if I was in a really bad mood, I might phone them up and tell them where to shove their stupid fine. And then just ignore the resulting letters.

rtho782

So its the train company and not the Police.

They have no more authority to fine you for smoking than I have to fine you for wearing a green shirt.

And this "out of court settlement" is rubbish, they could not launch a civil case against you unless they could prove they had suffered harm due to you smoking. They can try to say you breached your passenger contract, but penalties under contract law have to be representative of the costs incurred by the aggrieved party - and it cost them nothing for you to smoke.

Now, smoking indoors is a criminal offence, but all the Rail company can do is forward the "evidence" to the CPS to let them decide if they wish to prosecute, which they probably won't, especially if its an open platform. If this were the route they were to go down, I think the CPS would have some very interesting questions from them as to why they were trying to extort money for silence from those they suspect of criminal activity, they may as well ask a burglar to give them £105 to not tell the police about them.

This actually makes me want to go to a train station and smoke until someone challenges me.... But I'm a non smoker.

It feels like they are leeches who engage in extortion and obtaining money by deception, just like the private parking companies.

Can you smoke on train platforms?

No. The Association of Train Operator Companies (ATOC) and Network Rail has introduced a comprehensive smokefree policy throughout at all 1,900 railway stations in England as well as railway offices - station offices, canteens and workplace areas which are covered by the legislation. Because of this policy, smoking is prohibited on all station concourses, ticket halls, on platforms - covered and uncovered - and footbridges and subways at station premises. Retail and food outlets are also required to be smokefree. However, smoking will still be permitted on most station forecourts and in (uncovered) station car parks. No-smoking signs will indicate which areas are smokefree. If you are in doubt, ask a member of staff.

That's a nice policy and everything but it certainly does not carry the weight of law. They can argue that if you breach it, you are in breach of contract, but that does not allow them to fine you any amount, they could have a penalty clause for an amount representative of their costs due to your breach of contract, but I don't see that. All they could argue in court was that it cost them 50p to pay someone to pick up your cigarette butt and could you please pay that.

Contract law is also what governs bank charges - and why they had to be made representative of the banks costs.

mustrum_ridcully

@rtho782

Have a look at http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/nationalrailwaybyelaws.pdf

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

IANAL but it looks like smoking is covered by Railway Byelaws which means that this is rather more than just contract law (it's the same powers that allow them to fine you for not having a ticket).

Stigy

mustrum_ridcully wrote: »

@rtho782

Have a look at http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/nationalrailwaybyelaws.pdf



IANAL but it looks like smoking is covered by Railway Byelaws which means that this is rather more than just contract law (it's the same powers that allow them to fine you for not having a ticket).

Thank God somebody is talking sense.

rtho782 wrote: »

So its the train company and not the Police.

They have no more authority to fine you for smoking than I have to fine you for wearing a green shirt.

And this "out of court settlement" is rubbish, they could not launch a civil case against you unless they could prove they had suffered harm due to you smoking. They can try to say you breached your passenger contract, but penalties under contract law have to be representative of the costs incurred by the aggrieved party - and it cost them nothing for you to smoke.

Now, smoking indoors is a criminal offence, but all the Rail company can do is forward the "evidence" to the CPS to let them decide if they wish to prosecute, which they probably won't, especially if its an open platform. If this were the route they were to go down, I think the CPS would have some very interesting questions from them as to why they were trying to extort money for silence from those they suspect of criminal activity, they may as well ask a burglar to give them £105 to not tell the police about them.

This actually makes me want to go to a train station and smoke until someone challenges me.... But I'm a non smoker.

It feels like they are leeches who engage in extortion and obtaining money by deception, just like the private parking companies.



That's a nice policy and everything but it certainly does not carry the weight of law. They can argue that if you breach it, you are in breach of contract, but that does not allow them to fine you any amount, they could have a penalty clause for an amount representative of their costs due to your breach of contract, but I don't see that. All they could argue in court was that it cost them 50p to pay someone to pick up your cigarette butt and could you please pay that.

Contract law is also what governs bank charges - and why they had to be made representative of the banks costs.

I hope to God you're not a lawyer of any description! It's posts like that that get people in to all sorts of trouble. The TOC are working within the railway byelaws, therefore, if you ignore TOC letters concerning such an alleged offence (even if they are quite poor letters), you'll likely end up at a Magistrate's Court. This isn't a Private Parking Ticket we're talking about here, and it is a criminal offence to breach a byelaw. Not a civil one.

sharpy2010 wrote: »

Personally I'd either just completely ignore the letters they write, or if I was in a really bad mood, I might phone them up and tell them where to shove their stupid fine. And then just ignore the resulting letters.

More sound advice I see. Maybe you should participate solely in the parking discussions board, where their default setting is ignore, ignore ignore!

Just to verify guys 'n gals, if you're reported for a byelaw offence and you chose to ignore all correspondence from the Train Operating Company's prosecutions depatment, you will likely end up in a Magistrate's Court. You don't have to attend of course, but will no doubt be found guilty in your absence. Fines tend to range from £100 to £200 for basic byelaw breaches. Of course if you feel you are not guilty of an offence, by all means plead not guilty and go to court, that's what they are there for. Just do not ignore them.