Just moved - tariff and economy 7 confusion

nutter4

Hi folks,

Please be gentle, I'm a long-time reader of MSE but this is my first post.

We've just moved, and found the property we're in is with EDF (standard supplier for the region). No idea what the yearly consumption is here, and we may only be here 6 months. But I've done an estimate based on the time since we moved in, and it looks like both Scottish Power and BG are a lot cheaper than EDF.

A couple of queries though. The first is, EDF appear to have put us on a temporary tariff with a temporary contract (although it took them 2 weeks to tell us!) Given that it takes 4-8 weeks to switch, am I right in thinking I need to get on a cheaper EDF tariff pronto before any switch goes ahead?

The other query was about Economy 7. We have it here, though I can't think why - we have gas central heating and hob. So far we're using about 12% E7, though I might be able to increase that a bit. In one of the other threads someone mentioned that some providers will force you to have an Economy 7 tariff if you have a dual-rate meter - does anyone know which ones? It's a rental property, so I doubt we'd be able to get the meter changed. Is there any way of factoring this into to the results from the comparison sites, or do they do that automatically? I'm assuming that if you're on E7 then the day rate is actually more expensive than standard tariff day rate, which I'd rather avoid if that's the case.

Shed-load of questions, sorry. Any help gratefully received!

Many thanks,
Sarah

Premier_2

Hi nutter4, and welcome to MSE :hello:

nutter4 wrote: »

...Please be gentle, I'm a long-time reader of MSE but this is my first post.

If that's the case, you probably already know the answers to the questions you pose - I've often posted similar responses before

nutter4 wrote: »

A couple of queries though. The first is, EDF appear to have put us on a temporary tariff with a temporary contract (although it took them 2 weeks to tell us!) Given that it takes 4-8 weeks to switch, am I right in thinking I need to get on a cheaper EDF tariff pronto before any switch goes ahead?

You won't be on a temporary tariff - there's no such thing

If you've not asked for anything else, you'll almost certainly be on the supplier's standard tariff.
You can ask to switch tariff if you like which may indeed save you some money, but beware any early exit fees that may apply as it appears you are looking to switch supplier shortly.

nutter4 wrote: »

The other query was about Economy 7. We have it here, though I can't think why - we have gas central heating and hob.

We have GCH too and have E7 tariff. We have it because it saves us money.
You probably currently have it as you appear to have a dual rate meter (and presumably haven't asked for anything different).

nutter4 wrote: »

So far we're using about 12% E7, though I might be able to increase that a bit.

It's obviously up to you whether you wish to take advantage of the cheap rate electricity (typical savings are about 50%-70%).
7/24 = 29%. Can you think of any ways you could possibly make your proportion of cheap rate electricity higher?

nutter4 wrote: »

In one of the other threads someone mentioned that some providers will force you to have an Economy 7 tariff if you have a dual-rate meter - does anyone know which ones? It's a rental property, so I doubt we'd be able to get the meter changed. Is there any way of factoring this into to the results from the comparison sites, or do they do that automatically?

You'll have to ring around and find out. Probably best anyway as trying to apply for single rate online whilst you have a dual rate meter may well cause problems such as switch being rejected for incompatible meter, or worse still the new supplier putting you on a tariff you didn't want.
If you do it personally, suppliers wishing to accept you onto a single rate tariff despite having a dual rate meter will ensure its what you get

nutter4 wrote: »

I'm assuming that if you're on E7 then the day rate is actually more expensive than standard tariff day rate, which I'd rather avoid if that's the case.

Why?
Surely the overall cost is what is important?
Yes it is often the case that normal rate on E7 is slightly higher than on the equivalent single rate tariff; typically up to about 10% more but not always the case.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1207887

However with electricity available at up to typically 50-70% cheaper for almost 30% of every day, it may be cheaper to be on E7.
You need to do your sums before making any sweeping assumptions.

macman

Lots of good advice from Premier there, but I'd point out that if 88% of your consumption is not on E7 rate but on more expensive peak rate, then you are going to have to make a major adjustment to your lifestyle/consumption pattern to get any benefit from being on E7-I'm guessing that you would need to be using upwards of 30% on E7 to make any saving?

Dilfred

I was going to post separately, but this seems to cover my question (confusion over economy 7 tariff) Apologies if felt it needs own thread, please move.

I have eco7, but when asked by comparison sites they ask for percentage. The national average being around 56%.
I am not clear how that is calculated as mine seems very low.
Is it:
eco 7 usage / (eco7 usage + day useage)

or
eco 7 usage / day usage

Either way, I seem to be around the 20% mark if use the 1st calculation which seems more logical (night/total of all elec), but scarily low.

nutter4

Thanks for the replies - tried to reply in detail to Premier but the board wouldn't let me (said there were links but I couldn't see any!). I'll try again, without quote text:

EDF call it a "deemed contract" - they don't say "temporary tariff" but they don't say "standard tariff" either!

With regard to usage, I read somewhere (possibly here!) that you need to be on a minimum of 15% off-peak usage to make it worth doing, though obviously that's going to depend on how much the relative charges are. If I remember correctly from the one bill I've seen, it's 6p off-peak vs. 30p peak. Quite a saving, but only if you can take advantage of it. I could raise the percentage a bit (only using the washing machine after 10:30, and maybe slow-cooking stuff to re-heat in the microwave the next day). But I work from home, so peak usage is going to be higher than normal, and we don't have any really energy-hungry appliances like tumble driers that could be run overnight.

Good point about getting the wrong tariff online, I think I'll just have to bite the bullet and phone around. I know E.on (who we used to be with) run single tariff from a dual meter as that's what we did at our last place, though I don't know how common it is for suppliers to set that up.

Dilfred> I was assuming (yes, I know it's a bad idea!) when they ask for percentage that it's the E7 usage as a percentage of the total (i.e. your first formula). So 50% would be half the total units used off-peak; 25% would be a quarter of the total units used off-peak etc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

Premier_2

Dilfred wrote: »

I was going to post separately, but this seems to cover my question (confusion over economy 7 tariff) Apologies if felt it needs own thread, please move.

I have eco7, but when asked by comparison sites they ask for percentage. The national average being around 56%.
I am not clear how that is calculated as mine seems very low.
Is it:
eco 7 usage / (eco7 usage + day useage)

or
eco 7 usage / day usage

Either way, I seem to be around the 20% mark if use the 1st calculation which seems more logical (night/total of all elec), but scarily low.

It may vary by comparison site, but if energyhelpline is anything to go by they ask for a percentage of overall usage used during the low rate.

i.e.
eco 7 usage / (eco7 usage + day useage)

We use about 23% and don't try very hard (and as i mentioned we have GCH) We also cook totally by electric and don't usually have midnight meals

As mentioned earlier 7/24 = 29%

To get over 50% low rate usage would usually require night storage heaters or at least timers on many heavily rated appliances such as an immersion heater, washing machine (where the water is heated by electric via whatever means), etc. whilst minimising other consumption.

Premier_2

nutter4 wrote: »

EDF call it a "deemed contract" - they don't say "temporary tariff" but they don't say "standard tariff" either!

The contract is different to the tariff.
For a supplier to charge you, you must have a contract with that supplier.
It's a deemed contract because you haven't explicitly agreed to or signed it - this is normal for residential properties and allows you as a tenant to turn the lights on the moment you move in.

With regard to usage, I read somewhere (possibly here!) that you need to be on a minimum of 15% off-peak usage to make it worth doing, though obviously that's going to depend on how much the relative charges are. If I remember correctly from the one bill I've seen, it's 6p off-peak vs. 30p peak.

The only thing to remember from this site is that you should do your own research

6p is about the correct rate for low rate (sometimes less, perhaps as low as 4p is you look around), but 30p is way OTT for daytime rates. about 10p-15p is the norm.
You appear to be confusing the issue by considering tier 1 rates ... and then from the most expensive suppliers.

The break even point varies dependent on the tariff, and as the tariff varies by region, the variation is huge.
It can be below 0% (yes, it would always be cheaper on E7 - see link above) to about 40% (perhaps higher depending on tariff, but it's about the highest I've ever calculated)

As I said earlier, you need to do your own sums.

macman

'Deemed contract' is because you are liable for all consumption (and therefore in contract) with EDF from the day you move in, whether you have registered with EDF or not. If you didn't ask for any specific tariff when you did register, then you will be on the (most expensive) standard tariff.

nutter4

Premier wrote: »

6p is about the correct rate for low rate (sometimes less, perhaps as low as 4p is you look around), but 30p is way OTT for daytime rates. about 10p-15p is the norm.

My mistake - just went back and checked the bill, and it was just under 21p (inc. VAT at 5%) for peak. But that's for EDF, for the previous occupants; presumably we're now getting charged something different, standard tariff E7 maybe. I'll give them a ring and find out.

Premier_2

nutter4 wrote: »

My mistake - just went back and checked the bill, and it was just under 21p (inc. VAT at 5%) for peak. But that's for EDF, for the previous occupants; presumably we're now getting charged something different, standard tariff E7 maybe. I'll give them a ring and find out.

You are still presumably looking at tier1 prices.

Tier 2 unit prices for E7 normal rate electricity on standard tariff (inc VAT) are currently in the range 11.21p (Yorkshire) to 15.13p (SWEB)

http://www.edfenergy.com/products-services/for-your-home/documents/edf-standard-tariffs-25-07.pdf

nutter4

Premier wrote: »

You are still presumably looking at tier1 prices.

Ah, OK, sorry - thanks for the link, I see what you're saying. Tier 1 for first 1000 kWh/year, Tier 2 thereafter. Wasn't specified on the bill I was looking at, so didn't realise they used the two for Economy 7 as well as for other tariffs.